AUDITION: MARANTZ PM6003 – YAMAHA A-S500 - CAMBRIDGE AUDIO 650A amp

[admin_exported]

Hello All,

I recently put a few posts on this forum concerning brightness/glare with my CA 640/Wharfedale 9.1s/Asus Xonar D1 soundcard setup, the mentioned brightness became a bit too much and so I went Richersounds and auditioned the PM6003/650a/a-s500 with MS Aviano 1’s.

Yamaha a-s500:

It was a detailed amp to listen to and to me that’s about all it was, it didn’t shine in any other areas. The soundstage wasn’t enveloping like my 640a was, the bass/mids were decent, but something I noticed straight away was that it was a bright amp and this killed if for me. Also I didn’t like the cheap plastic retro knobs and levers and something else I noticed was that I didn’t feel like an 85w amp, while adjusting the volume it just didn’t feel like an amp double the power of the marantz or the equal of the 650a (or my 640a).

Marantz pm6003:

This amp demonstrated a different and more character full sound, it attacked the music it was fed with more purpose than the a-s500. Bass was deeper and tighter than the a-s500, the vocals and acoustics of Johnny Cash singing his last single “Hurt” came through well with plenty of emotion and the brightness was a lot less evident on this amp. I also played some classical violin pieces that were handled well with a soundstage similar to my 640a except for some minor brightness that I put down to the speakers.

CA 650a:

I was surprised at what I was hearing it sounded dull against these amps, the soundstage and detail was still good, but it was a poor second to the pm6003 in most other areas.

Outcome? I bought the Marantz pm6003 for £220 with a 5 year warranty!

I’ve got it paired with my Wharfedale 9.1s and it still sounds good, but not as good as it did with the aviano 1’s. I think these speakers aren’t in the same class as this amp, it’s throwing too much information at them, the highs are still too bright, the vocals and bass are not as defined as they were with the aviano 1’s. Is my reasoning correct to think of the aviano’s as better speakers than the 9.1’s (but both are still bright speakers)?

If my reasoning is correct and after changing my amp, it looks like there will be further damage to my wallet with a pair of Dali Lektor 2’s doing it, the only other way of fulfilling this amps potential I can think of is a dac?

Hope this helped,

AzurBob

 

[Craig M.]

i think the brightness lies somewhere else then the speakers. i had 9.1s and would not call them bright. if you are looking to upgrade anyway, dynaudio are rarely bright.

how is your room furnished? what are you using as a source?

 

[plastic penguin]

What's your interpretation of brightness? Are you sure you're not mistaking it for 'clarity'? As I've mentioned on your earlier thread Wharfedales aren't a bright speaker. I've heard Wharfedales with Cyrus (not 9.1s) - Cyrus can make your ears bleed, and the speakers tamed it.

 

[Anonymous]

Hello All,

Graig M:

My room is an upstairs bedroom converted into an office 12ft x 12ft it has laminate floors, desk, sofa and large heavy curtains. My source is my PC using an Asus Xonar D1 soundcard (high spec card with some decent reviews) playing 320k eac lame ripped mp3's and flacs.

On the subject of 9.1s, this was a review given by a highly regarded British Hi-fi magazine (I don't think WHF will appreciate them being named and so here's what they said):

SOUND QUALITY

Although there are obvious similarities between the Diamond 9.1s and the Quad 11L2s, you would hardly think so listening to them. The Diamonds are very projective, and almost shout. This makes them sound lively, if at times a little hard edged and mechanical sounding. I was amused by their vivid stage images though, that was almost rudely loud. So as Amy Winehouse sung Me and Mr Jones her backing vocalists seemed to be all but shouting their lines behind her; it brought a smile to my face, they sounded so brash and forceful! The Diamonds construct and intense sound stage on which images have a hard etched but vivid presence. They offer plenty of apparent insight yet at the same time real fine detail seemed missing, but then they are only £150.

The Diamonds lack the warmth of the Quads; in fact they are not warm anywhere, in any way at all. Nor do they have especially convincing bass, in terms of depth or tunefulness, although it was grippy. Nevertheless, close to a rear wall this is strengthened and it was decent at the price. The front ports add just a little boxiness to the sound, but it isn't severe by any means. Gabrielle's husky tones sounded somewhat anaesthetised, but she was strongly projected all the same, making me very aware of lyrical content, if less of vocal intonation. The Diamond 9.1 is amusingly projective; it tries hard to entertain and has real strengths, if also some rough edges.

FOR

- forward and engaging

- strong imaging

- uncoloured

AGAINST

- hard edged glare

- lacking fine detail

- mediocre bass quality

Thanks,

AzurBob

 

[roger06]

Good call AzurBob

I totally agree with your assessment of the Yam vs Marantz. I auditioned both (and only) these with my cousin and we both agreed the Yamaha sounded really clinical and boring.

The PM6003 is an unbelievably good amp. I wouldn't have even blinked if I'd seen a £500 price tag on it.

For what it's worth, my cousin bought B&W 685s. A little 'in yer face' for my taste, but a darn good setup none the less.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi AzurBob,

Off topic I know but if you like Johnny Cash's version of 'Hurt' you should check out the original version by Nine Inch Nails (if you haven't already) as hearing both versions adds even more emotion to whichever version you listen to. Some of the live performances NIN have done of this song are truly haunting.

Regards

James

 

[Anonymous]

Hello All,

Plastic Penguin:

I define brightness as "glare" coming of higher frequency sound. It not easy to define, but in violin pieces and high pitched singing it seems more apparent and its unwanted. 9.1s, I've based what I said on my own listening, the review I posted above, what some others have said and also the pm6003 is not renowned as a bright amp, but paired with these there's brightness? Having said that I've also heard Cyrus amps are bright and wharfedales(do you know what ones?) sorted it out, then it casts doubts

roger06:

Absolutely! I feel I have serious bargain and it feels like a full £500+ amp to me from sound alone, it's build and looks are also in a class above it price. Yep, there was clear difference between this and the Yam/Cambridge amps. B&W slightly above my budget, but if I went into that range I'd probably go for EB1's.

james_LR90:

Thanks for that mate I'll check it out. I tend to buy amps in the budget bracket which don't always bring the emotion out of track, but this amp brings Johnny to life.

Thanks,

AzurBob

 

[plastic penguin]

Hello All,

Plastic Penguin:

I define brightness as "glare" coming of higher frequency sound. It not easy to define, but in violin pieces and high pitched singing it seems more apparent and its unwanted. 9.1s, I've based what I said on my own listening, the review I posted above, what some others have said and also the pm6003 is not renowned as a bright amp, but paired with these there's brightness? Having said that I've also heard Cyrus amps are bright and wharfedales(do you know what ones?) sorted it out, then it casts doubts

roger06:

Absolutely! I feel I have serious bargain and it feels like a full £500+ amp to me from sound alone, it's build and looks are also in a class above it price. Yep, there was clear difference between this and the Yam/Cambridge amps. B&W slightly above my budget, but if I went into that range I'd probably go for EB1's.

james_LR90:

Thanks for that mate I'll check it out. I tend to buy amps in the budget bracket which don't always bring the emotion out of track, but this amp brings Johnny to life.

Thanks,

AzurBob

TBH, the ones I had the Cyrus tethered to were my old retro Wharfedales. Also I've heard the 9.4 (floorstanding version of yours) connected to a Sony amp a few years ago (and I've heard the 9.1s @ Richer a couple of years back) and I would never class them - any model - as bright.

For what it's worth, if a amplifier is in a higher price bracket than the speakers, generally speaking, when a speaker is pushed beyond its capability, it has a calming effect rather than goin' brittle.

For a wonderfully controlled, yet informative speaker, Focal produce some cracking budget alternatives to the Dalis etc.

 

[Craig M.]

i had the c.a.640 cd and amp - a real bright combo, the 9.1s tamed it. fwiw, i've also heard the 9.1s driven by a 250 watt musical fidelity amp - suprisingly good and nowhere near bright. it could be that the reflective nature of your floor isn't helping. or the source. imo, the other mags review is cobblers.

 

[Blackdawn]

Azurbob - You have 2 or 3 main problems.
1) Your not going to get the best sound if your not using lossless files and instead using MP3 or less that 320kbps. I think your PC maybe contributing to your problem. Do you have an external DAC? I find the brightness and sibilance increases as the file is more compressed (well at least appears that way IMO)
2)The 9.1 speakers are not that brilliant IMO (good for starter speakers but thats it) Even your CA 640 would have benefited from better speakers.
3)Try putting something on the floor (like thick rugs or carpets)

Also if you like the Aviano XR why not give those a try at home? Did you try the NAD when you auditioned amps?

 

[Zax89swe]

I think whathifi gave a-s500 a star to much and know why, sometimes it do sound very nice in some good sound electronica material (if we not mind the weak bass) but when pure music in the long term is concerned its missing to much in mosty all areas and tend to easily razor, when it sound good the scale is weak and with my bx2 the scale is only big enought where Im sitting and listen, very near. the power is weak or the THD serious bad at higher volymes. The a-s500 seems to be almost identical to a-s300, and even if the transfomator is little bigger the THD will come anyway when its got same components. It feels like 2x35w in bass output and controlled breathing sound and im not kidding, still can sound very nice in some tracks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p2eEvSREfU&feature=related even tho I belives that my dads lightning striked marantz sr4010 would touched it better...

The amplifier dont speak the all truth but is probebly worth the money spend. Man now I regrat that I didnt bought marantz pm6003 for 100pound more.

 

[Anonymous]

Hello All,

plastic penguin:

Yourself and Graig M have come to the same conclusion about the 9.1s, it might be worth while looking at a dac again because if it is not the speakers or amp (pm6003 is not regarded as bright as far as I can tell) it might be my soundcard?

The only focals I could stretch to at the moment are the 705v but their frequency response ain't much 65HZ up?

zax89wse:

The a-s500 is definitely not a bad amp at all, it was just beaten by the pm6003 and had the pm6003 not been there I may have walked out with that. The Yam is probably a better amp than the CA 650a. Although we both agree Yamaha may well be trying to sell it 85w spec to the gullible.

Graig M:

What can I say (as I've said above) things point to a dac?

blackdawn:

I have to agree with you lossless is the way to go, but the problem is I've already turned everything into 320k mp3 (and it's a lot!), although all my new stuff is flac. I agree there's more noise within lower compression and some of that will be "chalk on a blackboard" unfortunately. I can't help feeling that this amp is better than the speakers, it blew the 650a out of the water head to head with aviano 1's. The 9.1s were budget in their day and now they are budget end of the budget class of which the lektor 2's are probably kings?

I'm very curious about a dac, possibly the Beresford 7520/zeroDac/musiland, but I can't do amp+speakers+dac in one go.

It's only a 12 by 12 room if I was to put a rug in I might as well carpet it, which defeats the laminate.

I tested the aviano 1's not the 1xr's. I might be wrong but at RS you buy them and then you can only exchange them if you don't want them, the only other exchange I would want would be the lektor 3's (too expensive).

Thanks

AzurBob

 

[StevenKay]

AzurBob

I have liked this thread very much. You have done a good analysis of the Amps and Diamond 9.1 and have received detailed feedback from many. Both of these products have been highly praised in may reviews that I have read so far.

Good you bought the Marantz PM6003. Congratulations!. Mine (Marantz PM6003) too has arrived a few days back and is still lying packed. I am waiting to get the Speakers (may be Dali Lektor 2s) and a Marantaz CD Player 6003. I too had posted my enquiry / doubts here on this forum and did receive some excellent feedback and advice which helped me a great deal to finally buy the Marantz Amp leaving aside Yamaha A-S500, Nad C326BEE and Rotel RA-04 SE. I rate this forum's contribution in the area of buying Hi-Fi equipment as very high. There are people who are ready to help with sound advice based on knowledge and personal experience. I am all praise for What Hi-Fi on account of this.

 

[Sizzers]

Plus 1 for the Focal's, albeit I'm referring to the over budget 706V's. Great tight, punchy bass, wonderful clarity and detail, and a really impressive soundstage. As your set-up is in a bedroom they are also an exceptional combo for low volume listening if that is also a consideration. They are not a bright speaker in my set-up but they can be a bit unforgiving with some bright recordings which isn't the fault of the speaker. Got mine for an absolute bargain £250 ex-dem around 6-months ago. Lektor 2's are an excellent alternative budget match with the Marantz IMO

 

[Cypher]

The Marantz PM6003 is fantastic. Congratulations !

Try these speakers with the Marantz ;

Dali Lektor 2

Monitor Audio BX2

Boston A 25 (getting rave reviews everywhere)

 

[Mr Morph]

I have liked this thread very much

Me too! And welcome to the Marantz amp owners club.

 

[Anonymous]

Hello All,

stevenKay:

I've also found this site has been a big help, having a look at WHF reviews and then comparing to actual user opinions has enabled me to go to auditions with a good idea of what my best options are. I also think it's important to actually go and listen to the amp/speakers etc if possible, because you might actually disagree with WHF and other users? Although in this case I agreed with most other users and disagreed with WHF & Musickraft shop(who pushed the a-s500 amp as an outright winner in this class). I've heard the Nad 326 and 356 with Aviano 6's, very good bass and detail, but no soundstage, theys sound almost flat. Rotel 04se lots of rave reviews but no chance to demo.

Sizzers:

Them 706v's look like a class act and have much praised by WHF (and yourself!), they're just a bit beyond what I want to pay. I also like the idea of easy low listening as I do a fair bit late at night.

Cypher:

The Boston speakers look good but they're not bookshelfs. The Lektor 2's look like favourites, although I'd like a listen to the bx2's to confirm whether they are bright or not, one or two have commented the they need careful matching. Having said that WHF love them.

Mr Morph:

Yep I've had this amp 3 days and am thus far pleased with it, but I can't help feeling the speakers are holding it back a bit.

 

[Cypher]

I think the BX2 will work perfectly with the PM6003. I have them and use them with a Nad C326bee......great sound with lots of detail.

 

[Blackdawn]

Another speaker alternative apart from the Focal 706v and Lektor 2 would be the Castle Knight 2.

If your budget is not enough for these mid-budget priced speakers it maybe worth saving up and waiting. i.e. Your notice a better difference from the 9.1's when you do eventually buy. Theres not a lot of point in buying another similarly priced speaker in the budget sector.

 

[StevenKay]

Mr. Morph

"Me too! And welcome to the Marantz amp owners club."

Thank you and also thanks to everyone for the help. I shall be happy to share my Marantz experience once I connect it up with a decent set of Speakers and CD Player.

 

[plastic penguin]

Hello All,

stevenKay:

I've also found this site has been a big help, having a look at WHF reviews and then comparing to actual user opinions has enabled me to go to auditions with a good idea of what my best options are. I also think it's important to actually go and listen to the amp/speakers etc if possible, because you might actually disagree with WHF and other users? Although in this case I agreed with most other users and disagreed with WHF & Musickraft shop(who pushed the a-s500 amp as an outright winner in this class). I've heard the Nad 326 and 356 with Aviano 6's, very good bass and detail, but no soundstage, theys sound almost flat. Rotel 04se lots of rave reviews but no chance to demo.

Sizzers:

Them 706v's look like a class act and have much praised by WHF (and yourself!), they're just a bit beyond what I want to pay. I also like the idea of easy low listening as I do a fair bit late at night.

Cypher:

The Boston speakers look good but they're not bookshelfs. The Lektor 2's look like favourites, although I'd like a listen to the bx2's to confirm whether they are bright or not, one or two have commented the they need careful matching. Having said that WHF love them.

Mr Morph:

Yep I've had this amp 3 days and am thus far pleased with it, but I can't help feeling the speakers are holding it back a bit.

A thought accured to me last night. Did you or have you got your amp connected to the TV and/or DVD player? Would be interesting to hear how that compares to your DAC...

Or do you have a stereo tuner?

 

[Blackdawn]

Good point Plastic Penguin, from this you could see if it is the source (computer) causing the unwanted brightness if your still getting it or the speakers. Maybe the brightness has gone now you have changed to the Marantz amp and its just a case of upgrading speakers to make the most of the new amp?

 

[matthewpiano]

The best match I've heard with the PM6003 is the Dali Lektor 2s. Brilliant combination, with just the right balance between warmth and detail. Not a hint of brightness. The Avianos can get a little bit clinical with the Marantz.

 

[Anonymous]

Hello All,

plastic penguin & blackdawn:

It is connected to my pc with Asus Xonar D1 soundcard (It well regarded soundcard by various review websites) and I have an old Technics early 90's fm radio receiver connected up. The sound from the radio is still a bit bright and to begin with it was never a good quality one, but I do remember when it was paired with the technics speakers it came with it was warm (though they were competely different speakers (cheap and nasty)).

I blame the speakers because to the best of my knowledge the amp is not regarded as bright (and this is according to WHF and their review also). And the only other suspect is the as you've stated is the soundcard? And if I upgrade again it will be a decent pair of speakers or a dac (probably the Beresford 7520/zerodac/musiland 05), but not both at the same time.

 

[plastic penguin]

Hello All,

plastic penguin & blackdawn:

It is connected to my pc with Asus Xonar D1 soundcard (It well regarded soundcard by various review websites) and I have an old Technics early 90's fm radio receiver connected up. The sound from the radio is still a bit bright and to begin with it was never a good quality one, but I do remember when it was paired with the technics speakers it came with it was warm (though they were competely different speakers (cheap and nasty)).

I blame the speakers because to the best of my knowledge the amp is not regarded as bright (and this is according to WHF and their review also). And the only other suspect is the as you've stated is the soundcard? And if I upgrade again it will be a decent pair of speakers or a dac (probably the Beresford 7520/zerodac/musiland 05), but not both at the same time.

Fair play - can you, with interconnects, connect your amp to the TV 'Audio Out' and see if the brightness is still prominent?