Atc scm19 mk1 &musical fidelity m6i- too much bass!???

[Pickledonion]

Hi everyone.

I recently acquired some ATC scm19 mk1 and was reasonably happy with them using MF a3.2cr power amp (bi-amped with a3.5 integrated- yes I know, probably a waste of time- it was a temporary setup that became permanent). However, curiosity for the better of me and I bought an m6i to replace them. The idea was that the big MF amp might just take the edge off harsh recordings, as an alternative to ATC amplification.

The problem now is a simple one- much too much bass! I quite often hate the sound I am getting. I've spoken to ATC who expressed surprise, saying a more powerful amp should control the ATCs better with tighter bass. They directed me towards room treatment, which seems like a reasonable suggestion. Before I spend tons of money on bass traps etc. I would very much appreciate others' ideas/suggestions/observations. Has anyone out there tried this combination, with or without success?

Thanks in advance. ...

 

[CnoEvil]

I suspect you are now getting more bass, which your set up/room/speaker positioning isn't able to handle.

Things to look at:

- Are your speakers on a suspended wooden floor?

- Do you use heavy, filled stands?

- Are the stands totally stable (spiked), with no rocking.

- Are the speakers Blu-Tak'd to the top of the stands

- Are the speakers close to corners or walls?

- Is your listening position against a rear wall?

- Is the room full of shiny reflective surfices?

 

[Pickledonion]

Thanks for your reply. The speakers are on atacama 600i stands on solid floors. They are filled with kiln dried sand. Between the stands and the speakers are the isolation pads supplied with the stands. They are a foot from the front wall, which is as far as they realistically can go. They are 1.5m from side walls. The room has furniture and shelves etc and is carpeted. The room is quite small at about 16x11' with 8' ceilings. The problem has arisen from changing to the m6i.

 

[Pickledonion]

Oh and yes my listening position is against a rear wall unfortunately. The speakers fire across the width of the room as well, which again is not ideal.

 

[CnoEvil]

You are doing a lot right, as far as I can see....though I suspect you are sitting in a bass mode, which won't help.

Can you post some photographs?

 

[davedotco]

You are doing a lot right, as far as I can see....though I suspect you are sitting in a bass mode, which won't help.

Can you post some photographs?

And rather a lot of things wrong too, judging by the results.

Try the following, ,temporarily at least, move the speakers a couple of feet into the room, use minimal toe in.

Move your listening position off the wall and closer to the center of the room.

If these adjustments help and your sound is much improved then you are simply overdriving the room modes (resonances), ie too much speaker for the room when positioned normally.

Bass traps will be enormous in a room of that size so that may not be the way to go, the only practical solution that I can think of, bar changing speakers and/or amplifier would be the Dual Core (stereo) antimode system to cut the in room resonances.

http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/Sub_Woofers/anti-mode--DC.htm

 

[Kubs]

Hi pickledonion - how long have you had the amp? You may want give it a few hours to settle in (assuming its relatively new). Also which speaker cable and interconnectors do you use? You may want to experiment with silver coated cables (from my own experience and listening I've found cables can influence the sound). Good luck ... The MF m6 is a great amp

 

[Pickledonion]

Thanks again for your replies. I had a move around this evening which involved putting the speakers firing down the length of the room, as I've had others in the past. The sound was unrecogniseable, though not necessarily in a good way. I know from past experience just what a difference a couple of inches can make (said the nun to he vicar). Whilst I can't and won't have the speakers in this position as it looks ridiculous and just does not work, it does prove that it is the room and position of the ATCs rather than the hardware, though it is rather odd that the current overblown bass issue occurred the moment I changed the amp.

Interestingly and pleasingly, I have just put them back I their original position but with a bit more toe in and this has improved things noticeably. I have also just had a response from gik acoustics who are going to help me design room treatment. According to ATC.that will be the biggest upgrade I could make. I will keep you posted and put up some pictures when I've made some progress, if anyone is interested?

Cheers again everyone.

 

[davedotco]

You need to be aware that bass traps that handle these frequencies will be big, 10 to 12 inches thick and several feet in each direction and you will need several.

If you can live with this then I am sure it will help tremendously though the change of amplifier seems to matter too, any chance you can try an alternative?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Oh and yes my listening position is against a rear wall unfortunately. The speakers fire across the width of the room as well, which again is not ideal.

As long as you've experimented with the speaker positioning enough to know you've done as much as you can, this may well be your main issue. Even moving forward a foot can drastically improve things.

 

[Pickledonion]

Yes I know what you are saying is right. The physics says long wavelengths need a lot of material to make a difference. The 'monster' trap GIK Acoustics make is about 7" thick I think and I am looking at a pair of panels 2' x 2' to go on the back wall behind the listener (me mostly). I'm also looking at big wedge things for the front corners. My wife perhaps ain't gonna be happy, but then she married me so it's been a few years since she was last happy anyway. Seriously though, I'm putting quite a lot of trust in this lot on the advice of ATC. We shall see. The kids will make dens out of them if they don't work, so nothing to lose really.

 

[Pickledonion]

David, yes a few centimeters makes a big difference in this room. I wonder how many people have bunged thousands of £ changing equipment in vain when in actual fact the the solution was a free one. I've had some great advice from dealers who have talked me out of a purchase. I've also spent silly money on cables and then spent hours, days, weeks wishing to hear an improvement. Funny hobby this and an expensive one.

 

[davedotco]

Before you destroy your living room, take a serious look at the two channel Antimode system. (link above)

It will equalise out the room modes that are causing the problem and do so automatically, making bass traps unnecessary. It is a flexible unit that can also be used to replace your dac or work as a preamp. Not cheap at £680 but given what the room treatments will cost, not that expensive either.

 

[Pickledonion]

Kubs, I'm on the fence when it comes to cables really. I'm thinking (hoping) now though that the amp should so the job. It's had somewhere between 50 and 100 hours in the month or so I've had it. It sounded truly awful for the first hour or so and has improved since then.

 

[Pickledonion]

If only keeping my wife happy only cost £680. I hope no one is offended by the wife jokes - I just can't help it. She laughs as well (mostly at me rather than with me probably). I know absolutely nothing about he gizmo you're referring to. There's always something else to look at. When will it ever end?

 

[davedotco]

If only keeping my wife happy only cost £680. I hope no one is offended by the wife jokes - I just can't help it. She laughs as well (mostly at me rather than with me probably). I know absolutely nothing about he gizmo you're referring to. There's always something else to look at. When will it ever end?

Check out the link, its a pretty amazing device, ideal for smaller rooms. This is the full, grown up, two channel version of the device that is used to control subwoofers.

It simply analyses your in room response and reduces output at the room resonances, very effective. It can also be used as a dac/preamp and has the most sophisticated eq that I have seen at anywhere close to it's price.

Initially you can use it as a dac, before the M6i or just connect it in a tape loop, very flexible device, at some point you can swap out the M6i for a BFO power amplifier of your choice.

 

[paulkebab]

the amp, I'd give it more time to settle down. When I got my Oppo cans I was advised to give them 60 hours which was when they started to sound pretty confused. An amp has far more components in it so I'd hold the money for another 100 hours then do another evaluation, also a touch more toe-in should pull the bass away from your listening point. Good luck!

 

[Kubs]

Totally understand your position on cables. The amp however .... I've had my m6 for just over a year and its taken a while for it to find its groove ... It sounds very open and controlled ... I'm sure you'll hear these traits eventually and I appreciate you want results allot sooner.

 

[basshound]

If you use a computer based system have a look at this

http://www.dirac.se/en/online-store.aspx

 

[davedotco]

If you use a computer based system have a look at this

http://www.dirac.se/en/online-store.aspx

Good product for the tech savy but no use if you have other non computer sources.

The Antimode Dual core is more 'hi-fi' and easier to use. Use in a tape loop or between pre and power if you have other (analogue) sources.

 

[lpv]

If only keeping my wife happy only cost £680. I hope no one is offended by the wife jokes - I just can't help it. She laughs as well (mostly at me rather than with me probably). I know absolutely nothing about he gizmo you're referring to. There's always something else to look at. When will it ever end?

Check out the link, its a pretty amazing device, ideal for smaller rooms. This is the full, grown up, two channel version of the device that is used to control subwoofers.

It simply analyses your in room response and reduces output at the room resonances, very effective. It can also be used as a dac/preamp and has the most sophisticated eq that I have seen at anywhere close to it's price.

Initially you can use it as a dac, before the M6i or just connect it in a tape loop, very flexible device, at some point you can swap out the M6i for a BFO power amplifier of your choice.

This looks interesting. Do you have Dave any hands-on experience with this processor?

I'm so fed up with speakers in our weird shaped living room - small ones are ok but do not satisfied me while the bigger/ more powerfull ones are out of the menu - I did try everything.. the best position for the speakers is the worst for listening position ( alcove between fireplace and doors).. lots of bass.. something that can be sorted with switches at the back of HS8 but then what's the point of having over 8 inch woofers and not using its potential? anyway, I invested heavily in all sort of headphones and amps and dacs and just using HS8's as tv speakers, some radio..

I had shortly curved ATC 19's with Electrocompaniet 5 amp and bass was overwhelming to the point it all had to go.. however there was much better sounding speakers position in the living room but at the same time it wasn't people friendly room anymore..

I wonder how DSPeaker device could help? or maybe powerfull or bigger speakers are simply not for silly shaped rooms with suspended floors..

 

[davedotco]

This can be a real ****** and explains my general preference for small speakers in small rooms. I hear so many systems with just far too much bass, it's crazy and quite unlistenable, but a lot of people have no idea.

I have had hands on with the 'regular' single channel Antimode with subwoofers and It works astonishingly well but getting a Dual Core (stereo) device with 'full range' speakers is definitely on my 'to do' list.

I have always been an advocate that less bass is better than bad bass, but this device may well give me both,

 

[Pickledonion]

Thanks for that kubs. Sometimes it's good to get some reassurance. I've noticed a difference from straight out of the box and fingers crossed it will get better as time goes on. Im liking it now I've adjusted position a bit and I'm hopeful with the treatment I'm planning that it will drive the ATCs well.

 

[toyota man]

Hi Pickledonion it took quite a while for my M6i to settle down and then I upgraded to a M6500i so i would give it a bit more time if I were you *biggrin*

 

[gowiththeflow]

I have always been an advocate that less bass is better than bad bass, but this device may well give me both,

What, less bass and bad bass?