At last . . .

[CJSF]

Finaly going to have the 'Croft integrated 'R' amplifier' at home for the weekend, see if it is the giant killer it is fabled to be, see how it compares with the basic Croft Intigrated and the Icon ST40 MkIII?

Also picking up a pair of Harbeth modern LS35a type speakers, see where I'm going on the speaker front. Not heard 35a sound since the early 90's, I used them as my refereance from 1981.

I doubt that Saturday and Sunday eveninig will be enought to decide over the Croft, but it will give Hazel and me enought of a feeling to decide if its worth persueing. I remember I had the Pre/Power combination at home a couple of years back, generated a forward sound . . . Since then the room has changed in layout and we have discovered some of this forwardness was part of the old room layout?

CJSF

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm very much looking forward to what you think. As you know, once you try different speakers, it can throw the amp choice (ie. Croft vs Icon Audio) into doubt as well.....synergy isn't always predictable.

 

[plastic penguin]

I'm very much looking forward to what you think. As you know, once you try different speakers, it can throw the amp choice (ie. Croft vs Icon Audio) into doubt as well.....synergy isn't always predictable.

+1

 

[CJSF]

To true gents, to true. We are treating the whole thing as an experiment, as no one wanted a barging I still have the Icon ST40, therefore one has all the elements to come under scrutiny along with my memories of 'those good old days'. There is also the 'Jordan Full Range' speakers kit that I have in my mind, I will probably go and have a listen to them at Wilmslow Audio in the next few weeks?

I cant see the Harbeths giving the low frequancy rang that I get from my LB1 transmission line speakers, the Jordans are transmission line and have the same frequancy spec. as well as the same 87db sensitivity. However, if my memory is right, the 35a has the most amazing sound stage, the LB1 does not match my memory in this respect. they are good but . . . . . ?

At the end of the day, the changes have got to be convincing for me to move on, its music we listen to not the boxes that produce it . . . I even thought of selling the lot recently and just using the computer with a pair of active speakers . . . fortunatly I came to my sencess . . . *dash1*

Certainly, these days I get much more from the challanges my 4m RC gliders presents, with their true competition. Music fills the roll of 'satisfying relaxation' after a day on the field or in the shed.

CJSF

 

[plastic penguin]

CJ, sorry for, perhaps, stating the obvious, could it not be a case that you've found the 'sweet spot' with your current set-up? I know you like a good tinker, and the sun always seems to shine brighter on the other side. In reality maybe it doesn't.

I'm experiencing a similar issue with the Electro CDP: Betters the Naim in some aspects but not others. Which one I'll choose is still up in the air for the timebeing. Both are very adept, and match superbly with the Leema but I think I may need a large coin and see which way it lands.

 

[CJSF]

Thats about it PP, as far as speakers go I feel I have got the 'sweet spot' hence, the experiment element and delving back in my memory??? Although a 'full range' speaker is a whole new ball game, nothing getting in the way of the infomation, thats another proposition altogether . . . perhaps?

The Croft 'R' is a slightly diferent kettle of fish? Same manufacturer, same sound criteria, the regulated power supply might just give me that bit extra on detail and image but will it induce listening fatuige is a question in my mind, its the mosfetts that I have the '?' over, although they do say they have a valve like sound dont they. The 'R' should tidy things up a little, interesting couple of days ahead?

Overal, I've done all my fidling, so as I say, it all needs to be very convincing to get me parting with cash.

CJSF

 

[matthewpiano]

Enjoy the experimentation CJ. I look forward to reading your thoughts.

 

[CJSF]

Collected the Croft 'R' and Herbeth P3ESR, this morning, back by lunchtime. Cupa tea and a scone, sit and relax . . . I cant sit any longer, pluged the interconects in, power up, Radio 4 iPlayer, Friday nights Archers and the last episode of Paul Temple detective series, getting the Croft 'R' up to temperature.

Not overwhelmed by the BBC's spoken word . . . so dig out the test tracks we have used to asses the system from day one. I could hear some 'minor' changes, slightly more detail in places, the bass was not there in anything like the quantity, or quality. Whats going on, more music, still not happy, Hazel certainly was very disapointed.

Its the speakers not matching the amp??? Went throught the whole process again, all we can say of the Harbeth's they sound small, have a very slight megaphone twang to them, I dont remember the LS35a sounding like this?

So with the Harbeths still in place, we went back to the Croft Basic . . . no change, so re introduce the PMC LB1, all was 'sweetness and light'???

How depressed can one get, been antisepating this day for months . . . it has been mentioned about a 'sweet spot', its the only explination I have. My constant tweeking to get that last little bit from the system, speakers and room has been totaly knocked off ballance. I'm just glad I did not go the blind root and have the amp rebuilt to 'R' spec., there is not anything near £500 of improvement IMHO . . . infact I might even sugest a backward step in some areas?

The PMC LB1 is big and bold in presentation, and yet retains a finess that we love, obviously they are going to be a hard act to follow despite their 25 year vintage. Yes there are short comings but what speaker is not found wanting somewhere in its presentation. the same can be said of the whole system I supose. However it does point me in the the direction that I have been doing the right things to get the best bang for my buck over the past 3 years?

I was expecting to spend the rest of this evening and much of tomorrow digging out old albums to savour . . . Looks like I will be on the flying field Sunday with my gliders . . . *sad*

CJSF

 

[CnoEvil]

Sometimes one just needs verification/vindication.....it doesn't surprise me in the least that your system is hard to improve at sensible money.

The fact that you have it so right should give a great deal of satisfaction.

 

[Vladimir]

Google translate:

[style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; line-height: 24px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0.100000001490116px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"]In general, it is not immediately clear why one should take almost twice as expensive R model instead of the normal Integrated. [class="goog-text-highlight"]The two are not only outwardly identical, but are also built recognizable with the same amount of love and care. [/style]Croft while celebrating the ancient, old school of the [/class]direct wiring[/b][style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; line-height: 24px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0.100000001490116px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"] : The components grasp without board to the port-arms and network in three dimensions to artful structures.[/style]

The R uses a much more complex tube input stage consists of two ECC83 double triodes[/b] , whose work also high voltage through another tube - a 85A2[/b] is stabilized - from the 50s. The last two MOSFET pair BUZ900 / 905[/b] existing gain-instance is massive dimensioned in R, but offers the same enchanting simplicity: For even fewer components can be built without a functioning power amplifier.

Since Croft designed his amplifier principle without overall negative feedback, they have a relatively high output impedance and thus a greater sensitivity to frequency-dependent fluctuating speaker impedance. This was also the reason to test the Integrated R, rather than its little brother: The R, also thanks to its almost twice as large power supply, more reserves and was not in terms of the speaker quite so picky.

Not a beginner's amp, the Integrated R. It behaves in spite hybrid construction, similar demanding as a pure tube amp - a real challenge therefore for the AUDIO testers who were concrete, tonally harmonious and well priced realistic plant recommendations again.

The full article.

Audio.de seems to think the extra money for upgrading to the 'R' version is well worth it. Maybe because it behaves more like a tube amp, it needs higher efficiency speakers.

 

[CJSF]

Mmm . . . maybe I will return to the 'Croft R' intigrated at a later date, but lacking punch at the base end is puzzling? It may be the speaker effiency . . . all that I have read sugests the Croft can happily drive serious loads?

One is inclined to go along the line of 'each item is so closly matched', right down to the room treatment and not forgetting the stands that one matched to LB1 all those years ago. It so happened that it was the same as LS35a mix.

The big disapointment is the Harbeths, they weigh a ton!!! . . . 30-50% more than the LB1 which has a cabinet twice the size. I'm wondering what the cabinet design philosaphy of the LB1 was 25 years ago, one certainly appreciates the now old hat, silk dome tweeter and the much malined punchy plastic type base driver?

An aside, sitting hear taping away, listening 'close field' to Mickey Newbury via Spotify, he has never sounded better . . . re pluging the interconects and speaker cable, re setting the speakers on the stands using even smaller piece of BluTak in each corner . . .

Thinking it through, you dont need the national debt to get a decent hifi sound . . . sit back and enjoy . . .

CJSF

 

[CJSF]

Final thought . . . when I picked the Croft up this morning, Dave did mention it had had about 6 hours running . . . I wonder if a bit more time may bring the base end up? On a 'full valve amp' I could accept more hours is a good idea but a hybrid?

CJSF

 

[CJSF]

OK, my last thoughts on the Croft 'R' last night 2.30am . . . running in hours? So we went to bed and left the amp running, increasing the hours from 6 when I first pluged it in to 20+hours and still running.

Its 12 o'clock Sunday, not the best time (mains wise) to evaluate hifi. I dont intend to come to a conclusion untill midnight (Horlicks hour) so that will be another 12 hours to ad. However initial impresions, the base line has developed with a little more sophistication in the sound maybe, but it is very subtle. An over whelming issue last night was a slowness to the sound . . . that is still there, I feel like wanting to wind the tempo up?

See what things are like this evening . . . CJSF

 

[iQ Speakers]

Hi what did'nt you like about the Harbeth's CJSF?

 

[Vladimir]

The Harbeth P3ESR and the Rogers LS35a are not the same speaker despite shared DNA. The original BBC monitor was developed for broadcasting vans and to reproduce the male vocal correctly. The fact that they also made some music under 150Hz was an unexpected plus. BBC would have used them even if they didn't go lower and we would never know about them as a hi-fi collectors item.

My point is, one needs realistic expectations from such a small box and drivers. It may act big but when you plug in your big boy speakers, like those PMCs, game over.

However, as you say CJ, the stock Croft made decent bass out of the little Harbeths, so the spotlight is on the Croft 'R'. If you doublechecked the speakers not to be wired out of phase and everything is setup correctly as before with the original Craft, it really is a mystery why is it lacking expression in the lower region.

 

[plastic penguin]

The Harbeth P3ESR and the Rogers LS35a are not the same speaker despite shared DNA. The original BBC monitor was developed for broadcasting vans and to reproduce the male vocal correctly. The fact that they also made some music under 150Hz was an unexpected plus. BBC would have used them even if they didn't go lower and we would never know about them as a hi-fi collectors item.

My point is, one needs realistic expectations from such a small box and drivers. It may act big but when you plug in your big boy speakers, like those PMCs, game over.

However, as you say CJ, the stock Croft made decent bass out of the little Harbeths, so the spotlight is on the Croft 'R'. If you doublechecked the speakers not to be wired out of phase and everything is setup correctly as before with the original Craft, it really is a mystery why is it lacking expression in the lower region.

Think we can all interpret expression differently. Not heard CJ's PMCs, but if they share the same sonic traits as my TB2s, they'll take some speaker to usurp them. They are stunning.

Out of curiosity, Vlad, have you heard Harbeths or PMCs or Croft per chance?

 

[CJSF]

Hi what did'nt you like about the Harbeth's CJSF?

Quote, see #8:

. . . "Went throught the whole process again, all we can say of the Harbeth's they sound small, have a very slight megaphone twang to them, I dont remember the LS35a sounding like this?"

CJSF

 

[CJSF]

The Harbeth P3ESR and the Rogers LS35a are not the same speaker despite shared DNA. The original BBC monitor was developed for broadcasting vans and to reproduce the male vocal correctly. The fact that they also made some music under 150Hz was an unexpected plus. BBC would have used them even if they didn't go lower and we would never know about them as a hi-fi collectors item.

My point is, one needs realistic expectations from such a small box and drivers. It may act big but when you plug in your big boy speakers, like those PMCs, game over.

However, as you say CJ, the stock Croft made decent bass out of the little Harbeths, so the spotlight is on the Croft 'R'. If you doublechecked the speakers not to be wired out of phase and everything is setup correctly as before with the original Craft, it really is a mystery why is it lacking expression in the lower region.

Hi Vladimir, see #13, things have improved with the added hours, but there are still '?' to answer.

My basic Croft is a couple of years old, perhaps there are changes since then that affect things? I might have been lucky and got a particularly good one?

I'm still listening as background to give the Croft 'R' running time, see how things turn out tonight . . .

CJSF

 

[iQ Speakers]

Thanks CJSF PP on that note i may well look out for a good pair on Ebay should be a very good option in not losing money if they are not to my liking over the DB1i's. Now all i need is my Leema back!!

 

[Vladimir]

Think we can all interpret expression differently. Not heard CJ's PMCs, but if they share the same sonic traits as my TB2s, they'll take some speaker to usurp them. They are stunning.

Out of curiosity, Vlad, have you heard Harbeths or PMCs or Croft per chance?

Nope, never heard those PMCs and the Croft. Harbeths and PMCs not as exotic or rare as the Croft where I live. When I have the chance to pop up to Belgrade or Zagreb I may have the oportunity to checkout the Croft. Such a peitite amp usually doesn't blink on my radar, but valve/MOSFET hybrids are always interesting to me so I am eager to try them out. Only way to try a Croft here is to buy one by blind preorder.

The P3ESR indeed feels lacking in the bass region but it does everything else very well to my ears. They are quite small so... if there is bass, one should ask what is artificially adding it.

 

[plastic penguin]

Thanks CJSF PP on that note i may well look out for a good pair on Ebay should be a very good option in not losing money if they are not to my liking over the DB1i's. Now all i need is my Leema back!!

It is strange, and I can't put my finger on why PMC/Leema combo works so well, but it just sounds 'right'.

 

[CJSF]

Dont want to give the wrong impresion, I understand the Harbeths are not 35a's, but they are suposed to be a modern replacement I thought?

The whole idea of trying the Harbeths was to see where I might go on speakers. I have had the LB1's since 1991 so have not had a lot of experience of modern speakers, the ones I have heard I've not been to impressed with.

CJSF

 

[Vladimir]

The P3ESR are improved version of the original BBC design. More high fidelity, but not necessarily to everyones taste. To me the original just sounds more flabby in the bass and lacking a bit top end sparkle in brass instruments (although they werent at all refurbished). *unknw*

IME best to give the new amp a week so you addapt and see how things develop when you switch back to your old amp.

 

[CJSF]

Going back to the good old days, I worked with Rogers in the 80's. I had 3 pair of 35a's, over that period, the first were original and excelent as was the second pair. They then messed about with the ohm rating, the third pair were from this batch, which in my opinion had a flabby, all be it extended base response, I did not like them at all.

Unfortunatly my Croft 'R' has to go back tomorrow morning, hense the intense running now to get some hours on to it so I can do a final check out this evening. At present my feeling are some positive and some negative results, but over all I think the Basic is holding its own . . . save my money.

Put my time, money and thought into the other line I want to follow in 'Jordan fullrange transmission line speakers'?

In the meantime as has been sugested, enjoy the music and relax in the fact that I seem to have, so far, got things right?

CJSF

 

[iQ Speakers]

See CJSF we do read your posts!! Im now looking at the Jordon kits!! I had toyed with the IPL TL kits do you have any links to reviews? Happy Horrlicks