Are they tearing the heart out of music?

[plastic penguin]

Over the past few months I listened to various amps & CD players and there appears to be a trend that doesen't inspire confidence (IMHO).

More and more, when a component is reviewed, you see the words "refined," "clean," and "smooth" & less of "organic," "earthy" and "robust."

In search of musics Holy Grail, do you think that some makers are actually losing what's important to music (fire up a CD or record and what you hear makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand, or the buzz you feel when your Musical 'G' spot is massaged), or am I out of order in thinking something is being lost with technology?

 

[Anonymous]

Sure this is to do with the reviewers, not the hardware?

How else would they write about it? "We played some records and they sounded good".

 

[plastic penguin]

jbadman:
Sure this is to do with the reviewers, not the hardware?

How else would they write about it? "We played some records and they sounded good".

No, this is to do with the hardware.

 

[Anonymous]

I do apologise - I missed the crucial words "and less of" in your post.... in a similar way I missed off the "ly" from "Sure" in my response..... I'll get my coat.

 

[Anonymous]

plastic penguin:Over the past few months I listened to various amps & CD players and there appears to be a trend that doesen't inspire confidence (IMHO).

More and more, when a component is reviewed, you see the words "refined," "clean," and "smooth" & less of "organic," "earthy" and "robust."

In search of musics Holy Grail, do you think that some makers are actually losing what's important to music (fire up a CD or record and what you hear makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand, or the buzz you feel when your Musical 'G' spot is massaged), or am I out of order in thinking something is being lost with technology?

Sounds like CDP vs Analogue sound to me. Some higher end CDPs are supposed to narrow the gap between a good turntable and the relative digital hardness of CDPs, although I haven't heard much high end kit TBH. Densens B 400 XS springs to mind.

 

[plastic penguin]

jbadman:
I do apologise - I missed the crucial words "and less of" in your post.... in a similar way I missed off the "ly" from "Sure" in my response..... I'll get my coat.

I won't hold that against you. . . .Lol

To put it a different way: I used to drive an Audi sport, drives as one would expect, refined and ticks all the right boxes.

Now I drive an Alfa which is also great. Even though the Audi had better build quality and more "bells & whistles" the Alfa is much more fun drive - the feel good factor.

 

[Alec]

jbadman - thats as good a way top describe kit as any other in a sense. i mean, how do you describe that stuff unless we all agree on the vocab?

 

[Anonymous]

plastic penguin:jbadman:

I do apologise - I missed the crucial words "and less of" in your post.... in a similar way I missed off the "ly" from "Sure" in my response..... I'll get my coat.

I won't hold that against you. . . .Lol To put it a different way: I used to drive an Audi sport, drives as one would expect, refined and ticks all the right boxes. Now I drive an Alfa which is also great. Even though the Audi had better build quality and more "bells & whistles" the Alfa is much more fun drive - the feel good factor.

Absolutely.

Back to Hifi - I couldn't agree more as it goes.... especially in the lower end of the market. I would have thought that people entering the seperates world for the first time, want their music to sound.... musical..... like it did on their reasonable all-in-one or 80s/90s seperates.

Sure, the all-in-one will not be particularly faithful to the original recording, but I bet it will make you foot tap more than some modern, accurate, but limp wristed budget setup.

It's all very well producing a bright sound with a lot of seperation.. but when there's not enough oomph to back it up, it can sound lame.

I've had this issue with my budget stuff... as it turns out, I really enjoy tinkering with it and making improvements by adding/changing components etc and look forward to keep doing so.. but it was a suprise to me how hard you have to work.....not everyone would have the inclination to *** about like this.......

 

[timwileman]

plastic penguin:jbadman:
I do apologise - I missed the crucial words "and less of" in your post.... in a similar way I missed off the "ly" from "Sure" in my response..... I'll get my coat.

I won't hold that against you. . . .Lol

To put it a different way: I used to drive an Audi sport, drives as one would expect, refined and ticks all the right boxes.

Now I drive an Alfa which is also great. Even though the Audi had better build quality and more "bells & whistles" the Alfa is much more fun drive - the feel good factor.

are you a petrol head?

i know what your getting at now, i used to drive a fiat coupe which was wonderful! .... i then chnaged (''mistake'') to an MR2 then crashed that, now have an avensis which has 9 airbags ..... but i miss the sheer joy/thrill of the coupe.......burning off BMW M3's and as you go seeing the look of amazement on the snotty reps face as you go was awsome!

believe me the fiat coupe 20VT was a wolf in an italian designer jacket 🙂

 

[Anonymous]

Absolutely - anything modern which is supposed to have a bit of poke, just doesn't feel the same anymore. The way when you press the throttle you feel as if your foot movement is being interpreted by a computer before the engine responds.. rather than a driect link to the throttle itself...... you just don't feel connected anymore.

Sure, they're safer, more efficient and more confortable... but personally I miss a manual choke and the skill of starting something very hot or very cold that doesn't want to be started!

 

[chebby]

...

 

[timwileman]

feeling nostalgic for my old car now :-( the poor coupe was written off by the guy who bought it from me :-(

 

[plastic penguin]

timwileman:plastic penguin:jbadman:
I do apologise - I missed the crucial words "and less of" in your post.... in a similar way I missed off the "ly" from "Sure" in my response..... I'll get my coat.

I won't hold that against you. . . .Lol

To put it a different way: I used to drive an Audi sport, drives as one would expect, refined and ticks all the right boxes.

Now I drive an Alfa which is also great. Even though the Audi had better build quality and more "bells & whistles" the Alfa is much more fun drive - the feel good factor.

are you a petrol head?

i know what your getting at now, i used to drive a fiat coupe which was wonderful! .... i then chnaged (''mistake'') to an MR2 then crashed that, now have an avensis which has 9 airbags ..... but i miss the sheer joy/thrill of the coupe.......burning off BMW M3's and as you go seeing the look of amazement on the snotty reps face as you go was awsome!

believe me the fiat coupe 20VT was a wolf in an italian designer jacket 🙂

Exactly. This is how I feel about certain hi-fi manufactuers. Some people might laugh at the fact I own an A65+ but it has a fairly earthy sound to it, whereas the A70, for example, sounds too clean (or even too pretty) lacking the presence and the willingness to attempt to drive whatever music you're playing out with any conviction.

I'm not aiming this at just Arcam. I could cite 1 or 2 others I've heard recently, it just seems some new models err towards the "safety" zone rather than trying to get the adrenalin flowing.

 

[Anonymous]

plastic penguin wrote the following post at Wed, Jun 18 2008 4:56 PM:

"Over the past few months I listened to various amps & CD players and there appears to be a trend that doesn't inspire confidence (IMHO).

More and more, when a component is reviewed, you see the words "refined," "clean," and "smooth" & less of "organic," "earthy" and "robust."

In search of musics Holy Grail, do you think that some makers are actually losing what's important to music (fire up a CD or record and what you hear makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand, or the buzz you feel when your Musical 'G' spot is massaged), or am I out of order in thinking something is being lost with technology?"

I think I know what you mean. Even higher end players like the arcam cd-192, although blissful in certain areas, did sound restrained in some strange way. No issues with that now I'm using my computer and a Teac/tascam dac! Crazy, but true.
On the other hand the budget and mid priced marantz cd-players I've owned, are pretty good when partnered with price compatible components in one system, BUT when used in more revealing systems there are just cheese graters! Truly awful.
Anyway, the way to go is good dac. I've seen the musical fidelity with transport going for 800.If you can get the dac alone for less, your problems may be solved.

On a more theoretical level, a R2R/ladderdac/multibit dac as opposed to Delta sigma,gives less noise than single bit dacs, . The latter by design gives more noise, but -and here comes the catch- is much cheaper to manufacture. From what I've seen and heard almost all dacs contain the cheaper one.

 

[plastic penguin]

I appreciate that traditional hi-fi has to compete with cheaper sources, so I wonder whether that has a bearing or influence when designers are thinking about new models?

I hope that isn't the case. . . .in 20 years time what will amps sound like then? Or will we just have systems linked to the PC?

 

[Thaiman]

What are you guys on about? I totally lost!

 

[plastic penguin]

Once upon a time. . . . . . .No, seriously, Thaiman, given that, it seems, you have shed loads of money to buy audio equipment with, I don't really expect you to understand - that's no reflection of your good self.

Us poor swines who have to make do with budget or mid-range stuff are noticing that "fings ain't wot they used to be" with certain amps and CD players.

 

[Anton90125]

plastic penguin:Over the past few months I listened to various amps & CD players and there appears to be a trend that doesen't inspire confidence (IMHO).

More and more, when a component is reviewed, you see the words "refined," "clean," and "smooth" & less of "organic," "earthy" and "robust."

In search of musics Holy Grail, do you think that some makers are actually losing what's important to music (fire up a CD or record and what you hear makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand, or the buzz you feel when your Musical 'G' spot is massaged), or am I out of order in thinking something is being lost with technology?

I know exactly what you mean! Though I do consider my system good, I love my friend's system. It is in essence built on 40's/50's technology.

He has a turntable as a source,two mono home made 300B single ended power amplifiers,Passive preamp,Lowthers full range (no crossover) horn loaded speakers and a home made active bass bin (based on the KEF104AB speakers).

He players a lot of Classical and Jazz which sounds amazingly real and unprocessed.

 

[plastic penguin]

I am not talking nostalgia. My current system, although maybe lacks a little detail and the timing may not be as crisp as the best in class,and a fairly lean botton end. But the overall feel makes you feel good; it seems personal and intimate when you play your favs.

If there are any designers or engineers of any of the hi-fi manufactuers who like to air their views and insight, it would be appreciated (anonymously of course).

 

[Thaiman]

Are you saying that "sound per pound" preformance of current hifi crops are not quite match the level of good old day?

 

[John Duncan]

This is nonsense, of course, and has nothing to do with reproduction, but production. It's the way producers make music sound these days that's at fault, not equipment's ability to reproduce it. We've never had it so good.

 

[Tear Drop]

JohnDuncan:This is nonsense, of course, and has nothing to do with reproduction, but production

I agree John, but it is a vicious circle (or downward spiral), whereby hifi begins to mirror the sound of modern production values. This can also be heard in a lot of modern concert halls of the last 20-30 years, with acoustics often being matched to the modern 'CD sound', and this now becomes the benchmark for what constitutes 'natural' and hifi reflects this trend also.

 

[drummerman]

Tear Drop:JohnDuncan:This is nonsense, of course, and has nothing to do with reproduction, but production I agree John, but it is a vicious circle (or downward spiral), whereby hifi begins to mirror the sound of modern production values. This can also be heard in a lot of modern concert halls of the last 20-30 years, with acoustics often being matched to the modern 'CD sound', and this now becomes the benchmark for what contitutes 'natural' and hifi reflects this trend also.

Sorry, I dont understand some of you. You have an incredible choice of products and are surely able to find something that suits you. There's no one modern sound. The only area I might agree with is the with the trend of tiny small 'life style' sized speakers which are usually compromised in some way though even there are good and bad examples given the natural limitations.

 

[Tear Drop]

There are more products today than ever before, but in many ways there is less choice than ever. If you look at any market, products tend to become homogenised over time, and the only significant variations in the majority of products come and go with each passing trend. Quality and variety then have to be found within niches, or niches within niches. Hifi is no different, even if it is a 'specialist' market.

 

[John Duncan]

Tear Drop:it is a vicious circle (or downward spiral), whereby hifi begins to mirror the sound of modern production values

I'm not sure I agree - I think hifi (I'm talking more about electrical components, as opposed to speakers) has become more and more faithful to the original source over the last 20 years, at prices which were unthinkable then - the issue with music production is that so much of it is now mastered to sound good on an iTunes download or the radio, and sounds bl--dy awful on a high-fidelity system.