Are manufactuers short-changing us?

[plastic penguin]

This is inspired by other threads and reviews I've read over the past few years.

Often when a company releases a new amp or CDP or speakers and they receive a glowing reviews, when they release a more (or sometimes a cheaper version) expensive version of a component it seems to fall short of the cheaper version. I know some of this is down to personal taste but I've heard this so often [and personally experienced as well].

Examples are Rotels RA-05 and 06 (original version); Marantz Pearl Lite maybe not as good value as the budget brands?; Arcams A65+ and A80 and A70; Katana CDP gained 5 stars and the 'SE' version only gained three stars; Quad CDP (1,000 jobbie) is highly regarded but when they relaeased a £600 version the reviews weren't universally approved. Sure there are makes that are consistant like Cyrus, Roksan, Leema...

I always believed that they use higher quality components, so does this mean some companies maybe skimping?

Is there any substance in my questions, or is there a genuine reason for a perceived lack of consistancy?

 

[Clare Newsome]

I think you're over-analysing things WAY too much.

Often the rating a manufacturer can get at a different price-point (higher or lower) is down to the simple fact that they're facing different competition at that new level.

For example, it's a lot more crowded at the £1000 amplifier price point than it is at the budget end.

Conversely, when a higher-end manufacturer ventures into the budget end of the market, they may be forced to economise on the very strengths that make their premium products shine - whether that's a superb combination of components or superior build/aesthetics.

 

[plastic penguin]

The perfect examples, in addition to the aforementioned brands, of this are Marantz and Nad. They've a lot of awards/praise for their budget stuff over the years, yet once they venture into the midrange bracket they tend to fall short of the budget siblings. Perhaps I am thinking too deep, but too many makes trip up for it to be a coincidence or a fluke.

I appreciate you can't always hit the 'bulls-eye' with every product, and, yes, the £1,000 arena is overcrowded... yet so is the budget sector saturated, yet Marantz and Nad over the past 5-6 years have had a monopoly in that area. Maybe there's no real answer...

 

[Clare Newsome]

Yes, you are thinking too deeply.

Use athletics as an analogy: many runners enter at different distances (100m, 200m, 400m), but very few excel at more than one.

Does that make them a poor runner that's somehow 'shortchanging' the spectators? Nope, it makes them a specialist with real strengths in a particular disicpline.

 

[Mr Morph]

I always believed that they use higher quality components, so does this mean some companies maybe skimping?

What gives you that impression? I’ve always looked at it from an electronics point of view. Reason it out from the following.

A £300 D/A Converter that contains a couple of chips and an AC Adapter. Weighing in at less than a kilogram.

Or

A £200, 5Kg DAB Tuner, that contains; A proper transformer, an analogue reception, tuning, and output circuit, a digital reception circuit, preset memory, a massive scrolling display, 3 external aerials, a remote control, and guess what..? A D/A converter!!!

I think it is very much down to the manufacturer as to exactly how much profit they want to make.

 

[manicm]

I always believed that they use higher quality components, so does this mean some companies maybe skimping?

What gives you that impression? I’ve always looked at it from an electronics point of view. Reason it out from the following.

A £300 D/A Converter that contains a couple of chips and an AC Adapter. Weighing in at less than a kilogram.

Or

A £200, 5Kg DAB Tuner, that contains; A proper transformer, an analogue reception, tuning, and output circuit, a digital reception circuit, preset memory, a massive scrolling display, 3 external aerials, a remote control, and guess what..? A D/A converter!!!

I think it is very much down to the manufacturer as to exactly how much profit they want to make.

They can add featues like said DAC at very little cost - think iPod. A very good example of this is the Sony BDP-370 - it has completely useless SACD playback - they added it because they could and still sell it cheap.

EDIT: All DAB tuners will obviously have a DAC - I think you meant some that have digital inputs that access the DAC?

 

[Mr Morph]

No Manic, I'm just talking about the components included in the various boxes. And their relative complexity of production. That's all.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I think it is very much down to the manufacturer as to exactly how much profit they want to make.

A manufacturer can make as much profit as they wish to - they can choose to make 10% if they can still make a profit out of it (highly unlikely), or they can make 100% - it really is up to them. Obviously if they become greedy and choose to make an excessive margin, their products will become uncompetitive at their set price points, so no manufacturer is going to price themselves out of the market. But, they have to make enough money to grow, and to continue research and development of new products, otherwise we'd still be listening to 50 year old designs.

 

[Anonymous]

I always believed that they use higher quality components, so does this mean some companies maybe skimping?

What gives you that impression? I’ve always looked at it from an electronics point of view. Reason it out from the following.

A £300 D/A Converter that contains a couple of chips and an AC Adapter. Weighing in at less than a kilogram.

Or

A £200, 5Kg DAB Tuner, that contains; A proper transformer, an analogue reception, tuning, and output circuit, a digital reception circuit, preset memory, a massive scrolling display, 3 external aerials, a remote control, and guess what..? A D/A converter!!!

I think it is very much down to the manufacturer as to exactly how much profit they want to make.

Gosh my company makes a £300 D/A converter!

I just did a quick chip count - it's around 11 excluding a whole bunch of regulators. That includes a top of the line DAC chip (WM8471), a two audiophile op amps (LM49722s), a programmable USB receiver (TAS1020B), a microprocessor, a decent SPDIF receiver and a whole bunch of other support ICs. Oh and it has a 4 layer fibreglass circuit board that's jammed full of bits and a die cast metal case. But yes it does have an external power adaptor.

You can buy a nice heavy mains powered DAB radio for well under £100 with stereo output, display, 80 cent DAC etc.

You can also buy a new motor car for say £7,000 or £70,000.

Quite what point are you trying to make?

OK I am teasing just a little bit but you get the idea

John Dawson (Arcam)

 

[Mr Morph]

I think it is very much down to the manufacturer as to exactly how much profit they want to make.

A manufacturer can make as much profit as they wish to - they can choose to make 10% if they can still make a profit out of it (highly unlikely), or they can make 100% - it really is up to them. Obviously if they become greedy and choose to make an excessive margin, their products will become uncompetitive at their set price points, so no manufacturer is going to price themselves out of the market. But, they have to make enough money to grow, and to continue research and development of new products, otherwise we'd still be listening to 50 year old designs.

That is the point I was getting at. And John, I could have picked any DAC to illustrate the point, it was nothing personal. If we go back to the 80's my 337 (£550) was more that twice the weight of the Marantz CD94 (flagship, £800). That's certainly not to say that the the Marantz was inferior, because its DAC and transport were every bit up to the job. I've always found it interesting that build quality varies literally from year to year.