Amp Suggestions please?

[admin_exported]

Im looking for an budget amp for my system. Currently running B&W 601 S1's and looking to get a set of Wharfedale Diamond 9.1's.

Would like a punchy amp with a dynamic, clear sound. Something that will take a liking to songs like:

Dilated Peoples' - 'Worst Comes to Worst', Nero's - 'Innocence', Deadmau5's - 'I Remember'. I think those songs should cover all the major bases of my music interest, but feel free to ask for clarification.

Ive been looking at the Rotel RA-04, Marantz PM6003 or Pioneer A-A6. Which if any of these would I be best off investing in or should i look elsewhere? Budget - about £200-250 (though i will look to buy second hand and all the above listed i've found for under £200).

Thanks,

Sam

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I think some ghetto blaster or a PA amp will do much more justice to this kind of music. and I really mean it! cheap hi fi amps may be not gutsy enough to make you "feel" tha bass!!

 

[josh05]

I cant say ive heard the songs you have mentioned above but the NAD C316 or 326 would be well worth a listen, i think you may find the Rotel a bit lean in the bass if thats what you want. NAD amps for the money are clear and have ample bass (most people say too much) that is very punchy and tight they have a great dynamic range and are very powerfull with tons of controll over most speakers. what genre's are the songs you have mentioned?

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

what genre's are the songs you have mentioned?

it's simple. go to youtube and see for yourself.

 

[Anonymous]

Josh - genre's are:

Dilated Peoples ‘Worst comes to worst’ - Hip-hop (melodic, punchy rather than 'rap'), please have a look on youtube for the song as its quite hard to fully explain what type of hip-hop it is.

The Nero - Innocence is dubstep, with some obvious dance/trance influence's as the song is a lot 'cleaner' than many dubstep songs.

Deadmau5's I Remember is quite a soft dance song. Think 'Ibiza chillout'.

But as oldric suggested a visit to youtube would clarify the sound im looking for a lot better than i can describe. A lot of the genre’s ive suggested above do have a lot of poorly produced chart/commercial artists, however i come from quite a musical background and hence production value is important to me. I just need a system to convey this now

I will also have a good look at the amp suggested, thanks.

Oldrik – thanks for the suggestion, i do have an old sony Mini system that really pumps out the bass kicks, but it struggles with the complexity of some of the cords and synths etc. Im kind of looking for a balance, well or something that can handle both.

Also, would adding a powered sub solve my problem of the lack of bass delivered from the budget amps? Possibly open up the frequency range on it to include some non-sub-bass frequencies.

Any suggestions as for budget subwoofers?

The Warfedale Diamond SW150 received a 5 star rating and is going with the Diamond 9.1's for only £220(new). Thoughts?

I could probably push my budget to about £400, for a sub and amp (again looking second hand where possible).

 

[Anonymous]

Josh i think you nailed it! Just read a few reviews of the NAD's and the only 'drawback' listed is actually what i was looking for, a punchy, slightly bass heavy amp. Thought i think i may save up for the C355 to get a little more punch & the A/B channels.

Subwoofer question still remains tho. It would effectivly cost me another £120 for the SW150, so im very tempted. But would this be nessecery with the C355?

 

[Anonymous]

I think some ghetto blaster or a PA amp will do much more justice to this kind of music. and I really mean it! cheap hi fi amps may be not gutsy enough to make you "feel" tha bass!!

This is borderline offensive. I enjoy Deadmau5 through my ProAc Studio 130/MF A3/Naim CD5 system, aswell as our Classe/B&W 802D system in the living room. What of it? You wouldnt honestly recommend he sacrifice sound quality to gain a tremendous amount of unwanted distortion and complete lack of sound-quality based design? Wrong forum for you.

The only thing to overcome is to get an amp which can give out a lot of current, to ensure you will always get the right amount of bass from your speakers. My best advice is to look for a used Arcam A85, stighly more bass than the A3 I have, though it lacked a tiny bit of bass texture that the A3 conveys. Or perhaps an A75/P75. You can get a used A85 for under £300.

Avoid the NAD C326 as mentioned above, gutless thing that puts out less current than a ladybird on a gerbil's wheel.

 

[Cypher]

Try the Nad C326 or Nad C356. Both excellent amps. The C356 is more powerful on paper but I could hardly hear any difference between the two.

 

[jiggyjoe]

Definately point you down the Nad route, lots of power with good bass.

Plenty available on ebay and adding an active sub will put a smile on your face with the dubstep

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys that really helps.

Monstrous if you could clarify your point about the Nad that would be great? Its currently 3 against 1 for the Nad, but i dont want to discredit you view as you might be coming from a slightly different point of view.

Also with the PA suggestion, I agree that you do have to sacrifice a lot of quality with most set ups but i have a friend who is a DJ and hence has gone down the PA rough. A good PA set up coupled with an amp & speakers with a good clear treble focus can overcome some of the problems usually associated with PA's, its not perfect by any means and requires a lot of fiddling with levels to get the balance required but its punchy to say the least. Also my friend has spent a small fortune on his equipment, something i dont have or want to spend.

Overall (again) a big thank you to everyone. I'm so glad I joined this forum.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

This is borderline offensive.

well, yeah... the part with ghetto blaster may have been too much but it was supposed to be a joke more than recommendation. but I really meant it when recommending a PA amp. they're cheap and provide a lot of current. and they don't need to sound that bad after all. and I can prove it.

I red once a report from an A/B test experiment comparing some price-no-objective set up to some budget gear. both were connected to ATC's SCM 19s. the expensive rig comprised of a Wadia CDP but I don't remember the amp (it's irrelevant anyway). suffice to say it was equally expensive. in the other corner we had some standard Sony CDP and a Behringer A 500 amp. expesive set up was wired with some expensive cables and the cheap with standard OFC no names. to make things worse for the cheap set up it was palced on "hi-fi" wooden chair. during the test people were asked to chose which set up sounded better for them. and guess what; preferences were divided more or less 50% to 50%. which means; a lot more depends on quality of the speakes than of the amp. I found about this experiment on this forum so there are other people around who can confirm my words. but I can't give you the link to web page as I don't have it and I don't want to search for it right now.

another thing. how can you expect that 2 very similar amps would sound different? your recommended Arcam A85 is a class AB amp with probably passive preamp (if it's active than it's even worse; active preamps introduce their distorion to the mix). Behringer A 500 is also a class AB with passive pre. so where's the difference? in packaging of course. and if you'll argue that Arcam surely uses high quality parts think again! how would a budget end hi-fi amp use superior parts? besides if pro market used only garbage parts then it would be no point to buy outrageously expensive hi-fi gear becouse you can only reproduce what was recorded. and if it was recorded using junk then junk is what you get in your hi-fi. and it isn't so, is it? besides differences between high quality parts and standard parts are much less staggering than you might think they are.

 

[Andrew Everard]

And if you need any more proof, all of Old Rick's posts are starting to read the same, whatever he's writing about...

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Oldrik – thanks for the suggestion, i do have an old sony Mini system that really pumps out the bass kicks, but it struggles with the complexity of some of the cords and synths etc. Im kind of looking for a balance, well or something that can handle both.

Also, would adding a powered sub solve my problem of the lack of bass delivered from the budget amps? Possibly open up the frequency range on it to include some non-sub-bass frequencies.

Any suggestions as for budget subwoofers?

ok, this time I'll be more serious. I came up with another idea but it's more radical than what you paln to do. I wish I knew what was your source... anyway, you probably didn't consider active speakers, did you? trust me when I say that there are a lot of advantages of an active set up (i.e. with active speakers) over a passive one (traditional set-up: amp + passivve speakers). and that's mainly including sound quality. since you seem to care about this side of equation I see no reason to go passive route. I'm quite sure that if you bought some KRK Rokit 6 studio active monitors you wouldn't even need a subwoofer. if you needed, however, than you can easily integrate KRK's subwoofer with the monitors. and integrating an active subwoofer with active monitors is much easier than integrating active subwoofer with a passive set up.

I just checked. those monitors I mentioned cost 500 Euro so should fit the bill. of course it's better to shop aroud and you may find a bargain. I mentioned those KRKs becouse I heard good things about them and they are quite inexpensive.

BTW you'll need a preamp with active speakers too because you'll need to attenuate volume sometimes but I'm sure some passive attenuator from fleebay will do for the beginning. later on you might consider some tube pre amp for a more refined sound.

P.S. another important virtue of an active set up is better power use. what it means is that when you have power amps connected directly to speaker drivers (as it's the case with active speakers) you don't need so much power to get loud volume levels and high dynamics. on the other hand with passive system power amp must struggle with crossover network in speakers which is the reason for severe power losses. to give you an rough idea how it works; two 50W power amps in active speakers do the same job as a 200Wpc power amp in a passive system! thin about it.

 

[Timbot]

Subwoofer question still remains tho. It would effectivly cost me another £120 for the SW150, so im very tempted. But would this be nessecery with the C355?

Get a sub, get a sub, get a sub! You won't regret it!. I've just got the Wharf SW150 to go with my Kef floorstanders (which have a reasonable amount of bass anyway) and I'm amazed at the difference it has made- was very sceptical before hand! It's taken a bit of tinkering to get it set up just how I wanted so you can't hear it on its own over the other speakers. It can make the sound offensively loud and uncomfortable if you want it to though!

 

[Anonymous]

Timbot – Thanks mate, I defiantly will “get a sub, get a sub” haha. Thanks for the advice.

Oldric - Thanks, very comprehensive reply. I'm defiantly in agreement that speakers make the biggest difference in overall quality/'sound type' differences. However I don’t think you can under-rate the difference that an amp can make to the finer details of the sound, a lean set up (like mine) can be transformed by a good punchy amp. But to clarify, I do think that with the 50/50 split that could mean that personal preference is crucial, as I believe it to be. For example, one amp may have been very clear & crisp whereas the other may have been more subtle. I know that price and star ratings impress people, like myself I have to admit, but getting the right set up for your preference & music taste is absolutely critical. After all ‘quality’ is only perceived. That said a floppy, messy amp will sound Cr*p to anyone.

Also to your point about quality of parts in budget amps, I think I will throw a metaphor at that one: “a house may be made of wood or built in the sand, but when the earthquake comes the stone house is the one to fall”. In other words, it could depend on HOW the parts are used and to what effect. A poor quality amp build by a great engineer will out class a top quality amp build by... well... me for example. And again, personal preference will play a huge part IMO.

Your point about active speakers is a good one IMO, as the amp is tailored to the speaker you shouldn’t have any problems with a miss-match of sound. However you are restricted to their set-up, if it’s a lean set-up that’s what you’re going to get. Careful research and testing would be required. For now I don’t have the budget required for a decent set & pre-amp, plus I don’t want to let my B&W’s go to waste.

For now I think I will stick to the plan of getting a NAD amp, then add the Wharf Diamond 9.1s & SW150 when I have the money to spend. I think the balance of the punchy, slightly bass heavy NAD should balance well with the clear, but slightly lean (for my taste anyway) B&W 601s & the Wharf 9.1s, with the SW150 in reserve for that extra little kick when needed.

But, that said, I will look into getting an active PA speaker in the near future, even if only for parties. I’m a very, very novice but aspiring DJ, the PA amp should help me fine tune my set closer to what I can expect in a club (but the use of the clarity of the B&W, 9.1s & SW150 will help me fine tune my samples etc).

Again thank you, thank you, thank you to everyone. I’m always happy to hear any and all opinions! Lots of food for thought here!

 

[josh05]

Just had a listen too your songs sam, go with NAD or if you can listen too as many amps as you can before buying, in saying that though i think you will pick NAD, it will suit your music best IMO out of the others mentioned. As for the sub go for it! for that type of music it will be right at home pumping out all those really low frequencies the speakers struggle with

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

But, that said, I will look into getting an active PA speaker in the near future, even if only for parties.

I'd like to add here a word of clarification. PA term can be assigned to many fields of music industry. just like with term hi-fi which can be assigned to many fields of musical entertainment. for some hi-fi would be a home cinema in-a-box set up and others would not compromise for anything costing less than thousands of pounds.

I think most people hearing PA would think first of those large and ugly looking speaker systems used to amplify outdoor events or used in clubs. those sound awful, no questions about it. but theres also studio grade equpment which doesn't sound half as bad. in fact there are many well regarded hi-fi companies which also supply PA studio industry. for instance ATC, Dynaudio (both produce active monitoring speakers), Bryston, Chord (amplification). sure, products of those companies are expensive regardles if it's for hi-fi or PA studio apllication but there are other players out there with not so strong brands offering quality products at reasonable prices. just like you have many players at different price points in hi-fi industry.

 

[Anonymous]

If you are going the active route, then I'm going to suggest you listen to Adam's studio monitors, the A5X and A7X. To me they have a much more balanced presentation than many other monitors I've heard. Though with your choice of music, you might actually prefer the bass-heavy sound of Rokit or Mackie (I'd rate Mackie higher than Rokit, but they're more expensive too).

In my experience, studio monitors are heavily focused on transparency/detail but do not always radiate their sound evenly across the room, meaning that you might have some trouble getting them to sound great especially if you do not stay put in one location.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok first going back to a post from Monstrous. This might be slightly unusual for these forums. But if you like a good bit of Deadmau5, then please have a listen to B-Complex’s ‘Three Dots’.

Josh:

Yep, from reviews I think a NAD will be perfect. Thanks for taking the time to listen to my sample list of music. Did you have a look at the 356 when you bought your 355? I’ve had 2 slightly differing opinions on another post. Also thanks for clarifying Timbot’s point on Sub’s. I had a sub in a car setup when I was a few years younger and that was a lot of fun (attempting to vibrate part of the car off with bass testing CDs)!

Oldric:

As always thanks for the continued input. Yes, PA means ‘public address system’ so that could be construed as quite a few things. The PA studio sounds a little bit oxymoronic, but I can see there being some niche markets (though i’m struggling to think exactly what they are). A pic from Google might help me get my head around this, if you get a few seconds.

My use of the term PA does refer to the standard big ugly brutes. They aren’t for anything subtle but get a really decent one and they can do the job. Best use ive seen of them is as a ‘room filler’ in a party atmosphere. Most of the finer detail is lost in this situation anyway, for countless reasons. The PA can carry sound far better than any home set up, if you can really tweak it you can just get some finer points through when backed up with a classy system, but your looking at some top JBL or Mackie PA to avoid the harshness of most PAs.

But I wont be able to afford that. So I will just throw about £150-200 on a cheepy powered PA purely to fill the room when there are 30 or so people who are aren’t going to be listening out for ‘tonal quality’.

Oh and just to add a further side point on this – one of my local night clubs has a £1million pioneer system (it is about 12 rooms though) and this manages to still keep hold of the vast majority of most songs even at deafening levels. It is possible to get a good sound from traditional PAs, but for the price you can get a much, much better professional system and keep your ear drums intact.

Finally, Tremon:

That is something I have found to some extent, and is a major advantage of (traditional) PA systems. My intent is to have a 4 speaker system, 2 close to my primary (at my desk/decks) listening position and 2 wide to add width so they can also cover my secondary (sofa) listening position. This hopefully should solve my problems, though I have a few little ideas I want to try (and will give feedback on to this forum) if needs be. From my secondary position i will hopefully get a something similar to a 3.1 effect (where the center 2 act like one center speaker).

As always its a pleasure to hear from all of you, many thanks.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

PA means ‘public address system’ so that could be construed as quite a few things. The PA studio sounds a little bit oxymoronic,

that's a new thing to me. I've always thought that PA stands for Proffesional Audio so that's why I was throwing studio gear into the same sack of potatoes. you see, I'm not native English speaker so some nuanses might escape me. my bad... and thanx for clarification BTW.

My intent is to have a 4 speaker system, 2 close to my primary (at my desk/decks) listening position and 2 wide to add width so they can also cover my secondary (sofa) listening position. (...) From my secondary position i will hopefully get a something similar to a 3.1 effect (where the center 2 act like one center speaker).

I think there might be one small problem with such set up. first I want to point out that I'm not 100% sure if what I think might be will be but I'm quite sure there might be some adverse interference between speakers. if I get it right you'll have 2 pairs of speakers positioned some distance apart from each other but standing in the same plane and playing the same programme material. this configuration will cause some frequencies to cancell each other out due to soundwaves being created out of phase from 2 sets of speakers. it has to do with timing differences between the same soundwves cominig from different locations (I hope that makes sense). now, how much this will affect the sound - I don't know. but you'll easily be able to find out once you have your speakers positioned.

there's one more thing. when you connect and play 2 pairs of speakers from one power amp this might be stressful for the amp. I don't want to get into too much details about power and impedances but basically what it means is that when you connect 2 pairs of easy speakers amp will see them as 1 pair of difficult speakers. if you connect 2 pairs of difficult speakers amp will see them as 1 pair of very difficult ones. so I guess you should factor this thing in as well.

BTW almost every hi-fi speaker will be very directional. that's the drawback of boxy construction and dispestion chracteristics of drivers used... that's why sitting in the "sweet spot" is so important.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys that really helps.

Monstrous if you could clarify your point about the Nad that would be great? Its currently 3 against 1 for the Nad, but i dont want to discredit you view as you might be coming from a slightly different point of view.

The NAD is only good for a measly 11 amps. If you try to drive a speaker which is in any way not incredibly easy to drive, it will fall to pieces, mostly notable in the bass. I know as I had one before changing to the A3, which made worlds of difference driving even a little pair of Mission 782s. People saying the NAD has power have clearly never used one properly or tried any higher quality product. Tonally the bass is so innacurate and coloured, I hated using the NAD after hearing the 782's through a higher current amp.

oldric - You know you're spouting rubbish, I wont even entertain it.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

oldric - You know you're spouting rubbish, I wont even entertain it.

no, please do entertain. I'll gladly hear.

 

[Anonymous]

Oldric - Your correct about the problems of speakers that are differing distances from the listener. I have experienced this problem with surround sound systems where more distant speakers create a constant reverb (echo) effect. That said Dolby's virtual surround (from 2 speakers) basically just adds a tiny bit of reverb to the audio to play to peoples miss-conceptions about surround sound.

What I will be doing to correct this is only using the wide pair of speakers in the secondary listening position and i will make sure that all speakers are the same distance from there. Also as its a 2 seat sofa, the slight variation of distances can cause problems, but the direction of the wide speakers can correct this. Aim the left speaker at the right seat and visa versa, this should help.

Another option is to use a linear setup, basically put all the speakers across the back wall. Because of the number of speakers the sound will reach the listener in something called an interference pattern, and thus the disparities in levels and mis-timing will be reduced.

Its the same concept as when you drop 2 balls into a pool of still water at the same time. The waves then travel towards a wall, the highest level of force that this waves hit the wall at is where the waves from both balls hit the same point. This produces a pattern on the wall where there is effectively a ‘bells curve’ shaped level of force, with the peak as the centre between each of the balls. As for what effect this has on quality I do not know (yet).

Monstrous – I will have to have a good listen to a few amps before I buy then. If you do think that something that Oldric has said is misleading then please let us know? I mean please don’t argue over personal preferences, but if for a statement of fact you know something to be different, please say.

Thanks again everyone.