About ScanSpeak

[admin_exported]

Hi all,

What do you make of Scanspeak as a brand? Would you rate their drivers, how about compared to Vifa and Seas?

Thanks

AJ

 

[Frank Harvey]

If you Google 'zaph', you'll find plenty of driver comparisons

 

[Anonymous]

Brill!!

Cheers Frank

 

[Crossie]

Top quality but expensive.

 

[Crossie]

Thanks David for the ZAPH link.

 

[Frank Harvey]

No problem

 

[cs2011]

Hi all,

What do you make of Scanspeak as a brand? Would you rate their drivers, how about compared to Vifa and Seas?

Thanks

AJ

Scanspeak make (arguably) the best speaker drive units you can buy, but as has been noted, they are very expensive, particularly if you go for the best 'Revelator' or 'Illuminator' versions.

A very good second best would be drivers from SB Acoustics. SB is run by ex-Scanspeak engineers, and so their designs are very similar to the Scanspeak equivalents, but at Vifa/SEAS prices. (SB supply drivers to AVI, BTW).

 

[richardw42]

AVI ADM40 use Scanspeak illumintor

 

[SpursGator]

their designs are very similar to the Scanspeak equivalents, but at Vifa/SEAS prices. (SB supply drivers to AVI, BTW).

Not sure where you get this idea from. Seas is very comperable to ScanSpeak, in terms of price, across the various ranges. Vifa is indeed slightly cheaper (they are now owned by ScanSpeak).

You will find these drivers in great speakers all over the world, particularly from British manufacturers. ProAc use ScanSpeak tweeters on the D18 and D28, for example. The much-acclaimed tweeter on the PMC DB1i is made by Seas (and not even their top range).

Both Seas and ScanSpeak make a wide variety of different styles of drivers, so it is hard to generalise about their character. But in general, ScanSpeak drivers - especially their sliced paper cones - put out a lot of bass for their size and have sweet midrange abilities that tend to emerge with a lot of power. Seas drivers tend to be more about transparency. Their top-line Excel series offers two different styles of cones: a magnesium version, which is not very efficient and harder to cross over, but incredibly natural and accurate, and a paper cone version treated with a damping coating, which is a little softer but more dynamic (closer to 90db/1 watt sensitivity). And still very acurate.

Both companies make fabulous dome tweeters, in several configurations and materials.

If you are designing speakers, I highly recommend you read every word on Troels Gravesen's site. You'll learn a lot about these and other drivers. He also knows more about crossovers than just about anyone who publishes online - most important lesson from his site is, NEVER think you can design a crossover with calculations and/or software. It's much harder than you think and Troels really explains why. He has plans for well-tested crossovers built from a variety of drivers so it's a great place to start if you want to build a pair of speakers but you don't have a test bench.

And in case you are wondering...yes, you can build insanely good speakers at home. I have a pair of the aforementioned PMC DB1i's. They were 985 GBP. They contain two Seas tweeters and two Vifa midbasses that currently retail, in total, for about US$140 (which means a company like PMC pays a lot less). The speakers contain a few quid worth of wood and some very basic crossover components (they also sound great...love my PMCs in the office with my old Nait 5).

This means that, if you were to spend the same cash on really top drivers and some really good crossover components, arm yourself with a tried-and-tested design, and either get good at cutting wood or find a good carpenter, that you could build a set of speakers that you would need to spend thousands to buy (in fact, it could be still better, since no commerical concern could afford to slurge on the kind of capacitor, say, that you could do, since you are only building two speakers and not hundreds).

But if you pick out nice drivers, build a box with software, build a crossover with software, and build it, do not expect good results. It might sound okay but not true high-end. You must find a crossover design that is matched to specific drivers and baffle size, and not change anything!

Good luck...and watch out. You are starting a new and obsessive life with VERY LOW WAF.

Kevin

 

[cs2011]

Not sure where you get this idea from. Seas is very comperable to ScanSpeak, in terms of price, across the various ranges. Vifa is indeed slightly cheaper (they are now owned by ScanSpeak).

Well OK, perhaps I was generalising too much. It's true there is quite a lot of overlap in terms of price and performance. The Seas Prestige range is broadly similar to the SS Discovery range, for instance. But at the top of their respective ranges, the SS Illuminators easily beat the Seas Elites for linearity.

It is perfectly possible to design and optimise crossovers using software alone, but you do need to know what you are doing, and have access to the right software. The latter is usually too expensive for the hobbyist unfortunately.

 

[SpursGator]

It is perfectly possible to design and optimise crossovers using software alone, but you do need to know what you are doing, and have access to the right software. The latter is usually too expensive for the hobbyist unfortunately.

I disagree.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/crossovers.htm

http://sound.westhost.com/lr-passive.htm

There are people who claim they can do it, but you can't build a true high-end crossover without testing actual drivers on the actual baffle you will use. You also need a pair of ears. ProAc cannot replace Stuart Tyler with sophisticated software.

 

[Don Guess]

Living Voice use the Scanspeak Revelator in the OBX-R2 and RW range. Fabulous speakers.

http://www.livingvoice.co.uk/

 

[hoopsontoast]

Living Voice use a very cheap Vifa C17 driver for their speakers, along with the D209/9#00 range for the tweeters.

Vifa/Tymphany/Scanspeak supply to OEM to a lot of people like Proac, Sonus Faber and many more.

The Seas classic range for example is very good, the CA12RCY and older versions are very very good and very good value. Never heard any of the Excel range.

 

[Anonymous]

Gamut was formed by ex-Scanspeak guys; they use the sliced-cone woofers in a lot of their speakers.

The uber expensive flagship Sony SS-AR1 also uses Scanspeak and I heard these recently and they sounded excellent, as they should for the money.

Then again, what's the point of the original poster's question? Having drivers that measure well (and are well made) is obviously very good, but plonking great drivers into any old cabinet with any old crossover is not going to give good results. The drivers are just one part of a loudspeaker system.

My two cents on comparisons, as has been said above, it depends on the range, and on the application.

The Revelator and Illuminator lines are definitely above SB Acoustics and Vifa (better compared to the Discovery line), as reflected in price. Revelator woofers have a lot of bass!

Seas Excel is a fairer comparison. Have heard these too and they're excellent - I'd say they're cleaner and more neutral and detailed in the mid and treble. So it all depends!

 

[cs2011]

There are people who claim they can do it, but you can't build a true high-end crossover without testing actual drivers on the actual baffle you will use.

Not true. AVI do precisely that.

A lot of the issues mentioned by Gravesen are symptoms of using passive crossovers, which are eliminated if you use the active approach. Both the ADM9s and ADM40s for example, use textbook active LR4 crossovers, without any of fudging/bodging so often associated with passive designs. (Incidentally, I have no association with AVI, or own any of their speakers !)

 

[hoopsontoast]

There are people who claim they can do it, but you can't build a true high-end crossover without testing actual drivers on the actual baffle you will use.

Not true. AVI do precisely that.

A lot of the issues mentioned by Gravesen are symptoms of using passive crossovers, which are eliminated if you use the active approach. Both the ADM9s and ADM40s for example, use textbook active LR4 crossovers, without any of fudging/bodging so often associated with passive designs. (Incidentally, I have no association with AVI, or own any of their speakers !)

How do they approach Baffle Step Compensation then? DSP? I assume they dont just use the drivers raw response with just a 4th order roll off?

 

[jcbrum]

I seem to recall Ashley James of AVI saying that due to correct matching of the individual drivers and amplifiers, AVI active speakers do not require separate baffle step correction circuits.

Perhaps AJ will respond if this is not accurate.

JC

 

[cs2011]

How do they approach Baffle Step Compensation then? DSP? I assume they dont just use the drivers raw response with just a 4th order roll off?

BSC is largely a red herring, unless you like to listen to your music in an anechoic chamber !

It takes no account of the reverberent field contribution in real rooms, which results in an overall natural tonal balance (provided the speakers are designed with a nominally flat response to begin with). I think that a lot of so-called baffle step issues are actually due to poor driver responses. Seas drivers are a case in point - many of them have rising frequency responses, which would give an unnaturally bright sound, unless corrected

 

[hoopsontoast]

They must have EQ built into the amps then. Or just no BSC at all and a 6dB rolloff in the bass from 600hz downwards roughly. Would be interesting to know. The only other mass-market commercial speakers I know if that dont have any BSC in the crossover are Rega speakers, but they use the side firing driver with its natural inductive high pass roll off to counter act it.

 

[SpursGator]

Just to clarify: My opinions were only in regards to passive crossovers. If we are talking about an amp channel for each driver then it's a whole different conversation.

I think most people who are asking about ScanSpeak drivers are most likely thinking of mounting them in a cabinet with a passive crossover. Not implying that it's the only way to go.

There are still some very tricky issues with an active system, along with its advantages. I highly doubt that any speaker company designs, builds, and goes to market purely in the CAD/CAM and sim space, with any kind of human tweaking of the final result. But I could be wrong.

 

[roten]

I will tell you my findings in a month or so...

I am currently building these

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Ellam25.htm

And already have these

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Eekels-Mini_Trond.htm

 

[MUSICRAFT]

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Eekels-Mini_Trond.htm

Hi roten

Nice looking speakers 8)

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[John Duncan]

I will tell you my findings in a month or so...

I am currently building these

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Ellam25.htm

And already have these

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Eekels-Mini_Trond.htm

Still loving your Eekels Minis, Trond...

 

[roten]

Thanks , Rick

John - these are fantastic for the size. But upgrade has got me, so now looking at the Minis being bedroom system and the Ellam's in the living room

 

[SpursGator]

Fabulous idea! You are my hero for jumping in. I have dreams of building one of Troels's masterpeices one day, but instead I am working on a pair of his Scanspeak W1501 + 9500 bookshelf speakers, as a way to learn more (plus I am intrigued by the amount of bass people seem to get out of that 5" driver).

But one day I hope to have the skills to build a 3-way, maybe based on Seas Nextel cones...in the skills department, though, I am still sorely lacking.

One thing that has dawned on me as I have sunk into this is how hard it must be to make a living building speakers. At first, when you see how inexpensive the drivers are that have been successfully used in the 'low high-end' (ProAc, Spendor, PMC, etc.), it seems that the margins must be very high indeed. But then you look at what it costs for good audiophile-grade capacitors in the crossover, and the fussiness of the coils. And then you consider making those cabinets in bulk, the cost of the CNC equipment, the labour needed for veneering, the final assembly, the testing, the (often substantial) cost of the packaging, keeping the lights on and the lease going, fulfilling the orders and dealing with returns and dealer issues, recruiting and managing your channel...then you sell the speaker to your dealers for whatever, maybe 35-40% off list price.

Take a speaker like the ProAc Studio 140 at £1690. Say they sold it to a dealer for (and I have no idea of what margins are like in this business but just for argument's sake) £1000. There are six drivers in the pair, two crossovers, two quite-large cabinets, and two big boxes with good foam inserts. And out of that grand you have to build those speakers and pay for everything else I listed above. Then consider that (I'm guessing) the Studio 140 is probably one of the most profitable products in it's class.

I went from thinking that speaker building was this great racket, where you took a few average drivers and some cheap MDF and by beaing smart and careful, turned it into gold the way Gordon Ramsey can do with a 5-quid bit of leg of lamb. Now, having looked deeper, I wonder how they aren't all starving. Speaker prices are much more reasonable that I gave credit at first.

It still means, if you have the patience and skills, that you can do much, much better on your own, since you can start with better drivers (generally) and not have to worry about the cost of each capacitor like you would if you needed to make money on the deal. But it's not for the faint of heart.