A tech question about....

Toggle sidebar Toggle sidebar
plastic penguin

plastic penguin

Well-known member
Apr 28, 2008
6,676
3,281
36,570
....tone controls.

The common consensus, generally speaking, throughout the audio world is that tone controls hamper the sound quality. I fully understand that a purer signal path will (or should) improve sound.

Arcam on their AV processor have removed the volume knob, and most amps from a grand upwards are distinctly lacking in the knob area. Many purists are understanably jumping with joy (sorry Joy), preaching the manufactuer's word and influencing others (in some cases) to buy control-less amps.

My point is: how do we actually know an amp is better without controls? Manufactuers could spin a lot of old flannel, but unless we can prove it with our ears, what physical evidence is there?

Personally, I'm not for or against tone controls; I rarely fiddle with them, but it would interesting to know peoples view on the subject.

It's been gnoring away at my UCS for some time.....I'm a saddo
emotion-15.gif
 
The theory - at least in stereo amps - is that the best option is a 'straight wire with gain', ie the simplest possible signal path. Anything added in the signal path will have a deleterious effect on the sound.

So that takes in tone controls, however well they're designed: the mere fact they're there could make things worse than if they weren't.

OK, so you can have a 'tone defeat' switch to take them out of circuit, but then you still have a switch there you wouldn't have needed if the tone controls weren't there in the first place.
 
Arguably, tone controls defeat the idea of high fidelity as you are influencing the sound as opposed to reproducing it accurately.
 
idc:Arguably, tone controls defeat the idea of high fidelity as you are influencing the sound as opposed to reproducing it accurately.

There is never gonna be 'ONE' answer to this, but surely if you have a neutral sounding amp, all the tone controls are doing is increasing or lessening the signal.

Andrew's words "theory" is very telling. Because unless, say for instance, Roksan produce their K2 with controls there is no real way of telling. My concern is the manufactuers could be manipulating our decisions when in real terms there probably is no audible difference.
 
plastic penguin:My concern is the manufactuers could be manipulating our decisions when in real terms there probably is no audible difference.

I give up, I really do.
emotion-42.gif


If you're that suspicious and worried about the evil manufacturers, I think you should probably take up fishing or railway modelling instead...
 
plastic penguin:
idc:Arguably, tone controls defeat the idea of high fidelity as you are influencing the sound as opposed to reproducing it accurately.

There is never gonna be 'ONE' answer to this, but surely if you have a neutral sounding amp, all the tone controls are doing is increasing or lessening the signal.
 
Andrew Everard:
plastic penguin:My concern is the manufactuers could be manipulating our decisions when in real terms there probably is no audible difference.

I give up, I really do.
emotion-42.gif


If you're that suspicious and worried about the evil manufacturers, I think you should probably take up fishing or railway modelling instead...

It's a well-known fact that all manufacturers take a trip down to the crossroads, … la Robert Johnson, and sign a pact with the Devil. In return they receive untold riches and get to drink Ambrosia on top of Mount Olympus with the Gods ;-D
 
plastic penguin:So can you see manufacturers of budget amps, like Rotel, Marantz, Nad etc following the trend in the foreseeable?

What trend?
 
While I agree with the "shortest path" philosophy, I can't count how many times people have posted that they are unhappy because their system is too bright OR lacks bass. Both of which could be improved with a very slight twist of a tone control. Instead, people just buy new kit.
 
jaxwired:
While I agree with the "shortest path" philosophy, I can't count how many times people have posted that they are unhappy because their system is too bright OR lacks bass. Both of which could be improved with a very slight twist of a tone control. Instead, people just buy new kit.

Or new cables.
 
Andrew Everard:

plastic penguin:So can you see manufacturers of budget amps, like Rotel, Marantz, Nad etc following the trend in the foreseeable?

What trend?

Sorry, Andrew - what I meant to say (probably more precise) was "collective tenet".
 
Tone controls or graphic equalisers may make your amplifier reproduce music "like you think it should sound, or "how you like it to sound" but that is not the point of the meaning "Hi-Fi". The definition of High Fidelity is " The reproduction of sound or music that is completely faithful to the original". As soon as you start ading 'Tone Controls' you start screwing up the signal path more than the amplifier is doing already. Just do a Fast Fourier Transform on a very basic signal and see as to what tone controls do. Look at Group Delay, Phase Shifts and so on... I have only come across tone controls that did little damage to the signal twice in my life. That was from early Quad amplifiers and Haffler. Me? Not a tone control in sight and that is the way it will stay!
 
I understand the meaning of the word 'trend', I just didn't know what you saw as a trend. The fact that Arcam has replaced a rotary volume control with up/down buttons on an AV processor? The lack of tone controls? Or all manufacturers becoming evil and misleading consumers?
 
If you are worried about analog signal paths go the digital DSP route. Not very audiophile to using an equalizer, you say? Go tell Lyngdorf.

Also, I would be surprised if there would not be quite a bit of (nowadays dsp) tweaking in modern recording practices, so purist probably means something like 'as the guys who produced and mastered the recording thought we would like it'.

For me, I do not miss tone control at all. I was a bit worried that boomy basses could not be turned down a bit, but guess what, the Primare does not have boomy bass
emotion-1.gif
.
 
Andrew Everard:I understand the meaning of the word 'trend', I just didn't know what you saw as a trend. The fact that Arcam has replaced a rotary volume control with up/down buttons on an AV processor? The lack of tone controls? Or all manufacturers becoming evil and misleading consumers?

The collective tenet of Roksan, Cyrus, Naim, Leema, Moon etc to have tone knob-less amps. I don't think manufactuers are evil, but the potential is there for companies to be less than candid with their info.
 
Yes, some manufacturers fit tone controls, others prefer to go for the cleanest signal path. Indeed some manufacturers fit tone controls on some models, and not on others.

I don't think there is any intention to mislead the consumer in this choice, but then I'm still really not sure what point you're trying to make.
 
jaxwired:

While I agree with the "shortest path" philosophy, I can't count how many times people have posted that they are unhappy because their system is too bright OR lacks bass. Both of which could be improved with a very slight twist of a tone control. Instead, people just buy new kit.

That really is my only reservation. When I tested DB1's back in the summer, my Arc was at half bass and three quaters treble with music. Spin a DVD or watch some TV I had to crank the bass up to achieve satisfactory depth. The real concern is because they are searching for near perfection, are they extracting some of the fun out of hi-fis. Boys toys.....
 
jaxwired:
While I agree with the "shortest path" philosophy, I can't count how many times people have posted that they are unhappy because their system is too bright OR lacks bass. Both of which could be improved with a very slight twist of a tone control. Instead, people just buy new kit.

or buying better matched kit in the first place
emotion-15.gif
 
Of course, we then take these systems, without tone controls, and stick them in a room which may or may not accentuate or attenuate certain parts of the sound spectrum, and no means of dealing with this.

Bring back the graphic equaliser, I say
emotion-1.gif
 
Tone controls or graphic equalisers may make your amplifier reproduce
music "like you think it should sound, or "how you like it to sound"
but that is not the point of the meaning "Hi-Fi". The definition of
High Fidelity is " The reproduction of sound or music that is completely faithful to the original".



If all amplifiers sound different then which amplifier would you deem to produce music faithful to the original? Being snobby about tone controls is ridiculous. An attemt to prove a point. I know it isnt quite as simple as this obviously.

Amp 1 is a Cyrus. Slightly lean bass.

Amp 2 is a Roksan. Deep bass.

Are they both producing faithful reproductions? No.

If the Cyrus had tone controls and I turned the bass up on it why would you say this is not hifi?

Without tone controls all you are faithfully reproducing is the manafacturers intended voicing. Which would sound different depending on room anyway!
 
The discontinued Arcam A32 has bass and treble controls. It was discovered that the CMOS switching used to disengage the tone controls added a tiny amount of distortion to the signal (such is the non-linear nature of semiconducting materials). The replacement A38 amplifier does not have tone controls and exhibits measurably lower distortion. It also uses reed relays for source switching instead of CMOS ICs. There's no doubt that it provides a measurably and audibly purer, more faithful sound.

Without tone controls you are indeed hearing the amp as the manufacturer voiced it. But that will always be ruler flat 10Hz to 30kHz (say) - introducing any tone control will deviate from that significantly and is not the way to correct the sound. The phase and impulse response will go to pot as soon as a tone control is adjusted - the very nature of a bass boost causes ringing in the time domain, smearing transients. Proper acoustic treatment, speaker choice and placement will 'correct' the sound in a much purer fashion.
 
Aye a lot of marketing chat with these "purest signal" lines giving us the "most accurate" sound....meh.

The only way to obtain the most accurate representation of a recording is to:-

a) be at the original recording

or

b) be in the mixing/mastering sessions thereafter but already, you're at least one and possibly many steps away from the ideal

That's about as near as you'll get. Anything else, anything, is wishful thinking about accurately reproducing the original work. You get might get a decent idea, probably, but by the time you factor in what one manufacturer thinks is the best way to do it - within the confines of a product's development budget - against what another one does within the same confines and then the other equipment and rooms these amplifiers will be used in, the influence of cables, furnishings and room shape, it's wishful thinking. Total fallacy.

Get the balance and synergy between components right for your ears, resulting in a sound that plays music you find appealing and enjoyable, then that's the best you can hope for. By all means go for "neutral" but if that sound doesn't float your boat, all the blah blah about "but that's how it was meant to sound" falls flat on its' face if you're not happy with it. Plus, it's a poor argument in the first instance and doesn't stand up to scrutiny IMO.
 
I remember this subject coming up last year sometime. Can't remember who put the post up or the exact wording but it went something like this -

Without tone controls - Someone else is telling me how my music should sound.

With tone controls - I decide how my music will sound.

I thought then, and still do, one of the best posts I've read.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts

Share this page

COMPANY
RESOURCES
FOLLOW
Top Bottom