A backwards step?

Neuphonix

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Hi all,

I might get shooed out of the hi-fi section but I'm thinking of making some changes to my system again & thought I'd put it out there to get some thoughts.

I started out a couple of years ago wanting to add a power amp to my AV set-up & it was recommended that I could try adding an integrated instead.

First tried the MF M6-500i because of the HT by-pass feature. Then stepped up to the AMS35i which was great. After a few firey experiences I ended up with a separate MF Primo pre-amp & an AMS35P power amp.

Sounds great for music no doubt about it, but I haven't ended up with what I originally set out to do which was add some extra grunt to my AV set-up.

Spoke to the dealer that I bought my kit from & he has offered to swap the pre/pow for an M6-500i & a new Yamaha AV reciever. In terms of dollars spent I'm a little bit behind but not much. He's pretty clear however that he doesn't think that this is the best thing to do.

I'm not going to argue the case that the M6 is in the same league as the AMS. However my usage is 50/50 music /HT, probably even more HT if I'm totally honest.

Unfortunately I don't have the space (or the money) to have two totally separate systems.

So......... is the trade off in terms of SQ outweighed by the practical benefit of adding a powerful high quality integrated?

On another note I'm in the process of moving my Diablos on as well. As much as have enjoyed the clarity they offer I truly miss the scale & midrage that floorstanders can give. Have been eyeing off a pair of Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Concert Grands. Anyone with any thoughts on these?

Funny, after all the experimenting to pretty much go full circle & end up back where I started!!! Bloody expensive circle ;)
 

Neuphonix

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I know I know, a bit out there. Told you I might get hoofed out of the hifi section!

Have you had any experience with Vienna Acoustics? Beautiful looking speakers.

I'm going to borrow a pair for a while to demo.
 

oldric_naubhoff

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Neuphonix said:
Sounds great for music no doubt about it, but I haven't ended up with what I originally set out to do which was add some extra grunt to my AV set-up.

can you define what you mean by the highlighted?

if it's unrestrained dynamic expression you're after than I'd be first looking at changing speakers. definitely stay clear of standmounts. you could consider horns like Avantgarde Uno or Duo (if you can house them in your room). no other transducer technology is free from dynamic compression as much as horns so this may be a ticket for you. other than that I'd consider some line source arrays. they are capable to play much louder and with lower distortion at high SPLs than typical 2-way or 3-way speakers.
 

Neuphonix

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oldric_naubhoff said:
Neuphonix said:
Sounds great for music no doubt about it, but I haven't ended up with what I originally set out to do which was add some extra grunt to my AV set-up.

can you define what you mean by the highlighted?

if it's unrestrained dynamic expression you're after than I'd be first looking at changing speakers. definitely stay clear of standmounts. you could consider horns like Avantgarde Uno or Duo (if you can house them in your room). no other transducer technology is free from dynamic compression as much as horns so this may be a ticket for you. other than that I'd consider some line source arrays. they are capable to play much louder and with lower distortion at high SPLs than typical 2-way or 3-way speakers.

When I first added the M6-500i into my system I was still running a large set of floorstanders

http://www.krix.com.au/neuphonix.html

My initial impression upon first listen was holy smoke, I've got a new set of speakers as well as a new amp. It was a real lesson to hear how much difference a truly powerful amp made.

I will look into the options that you listed, not sure that a line array would be suited to my room. I'm not necessarily looking to blow the windows out, but definitely more bass & midrange than the Diablos currently offer. I have been playing around with adding subs but cant quite get it right. For some music it sounds terrific & some not so.

Was hoping someone might be able to give some input on the Viennas. There's not alot out there about them, but most feedback seems to be positive.
 

matt49

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Neuphonix said:
Was hoping someone might be able to give some input on the Viennas. There's not alot out there about them, but most feedback seems to be positive.

There are a couple of people here who run Viennas, e.g. ngibbs. If you started a new VA thread (or resurrected an old one) you might get some helpful responses.

:cheers:

Matt
 

CnoEvil

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My suggestion would be to have a listen to the new Arcam AVR750......it may well be acceptable for both AV and two channel.
 
T

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I'd also add Onkyo's brilliant TX-NR818 amp. Can't really fault this in a hurry.
 

Neuphonix

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Thanks CNo & RS,

I will look into those two alternatives, have owned Oknyo amps in the past and always like them. Not had any experience with Arcam yet however.

Surely though the M6-500i would be superior for hifi usage than either of those two options? Would this not be having the best of both worlds both in terms of SQ & power.

Not as good as the AMS kit I know, but I guess I'm just thinking that the M6 would be used all the time whether it be for AV or hifi. As it stands the AMS gear is only used for Hifi around 50% of the time which is not necessarily a bad thing but a part of me would like to get more use out of such an expensive purchase. I don't want a Sunday sports car, more a powerful performer that can handle the daily commute & still leave you with a smile on your face. :)
 

CnoEvil

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Neuphonix said:
Surely though the M6-500i would be superior for hifi usage than either of those two options? Would this not be having the best of both worlds both in terms of SQ & power.

It wouldn't surprise me if you preferred the AVR750 to the M6 500i.....even though it's not as powerful, and in theory not as good. I preferred the AVR600 to several expensive amps (M6i included), and the AVR750 is supposed to be better again (cleaner, punchier and more detailed).

FWIW. I like the idea of VA speakers, but can't comment on them from personal experience......you should also try Kef R Series.
 

Neuphonix

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CnoEvil said:
Neuphonix said:
Surely though the M6-500i would be superior for hifi usage than either of those two options? Would this not be having the best of both worlds both in terms of SQ & power.

It wouldn't surprise me if you preferred the AVR750 to the M6 500i.....even though it's not as powerful, and in theory not as good. I preferred the AVR600 to several expensive amps (M6i included), and the AVR750 is supposed to be better again (cleaner, punchier and more detailed).

FWIW. I like the idea of VA speakers, but can't comment on them from personal experience......you should also try Kef R Series.

The dealer that I have been using for my MF gear doesn't stock Arcam, so unless I try to sell privately juggling that might be a bit tricky. As it stands I know that they are willing to do the swap, so I'll do the speaker change first & then try borrowing the M6 for a home demo before I commit.

Regarding the Kefs, the dealer that I purchased my Akurate from has a trade in set of R205/2 in stock. So I will most definitely be checking them out before making a decision.

How could I not after all your incessant recommendations!!! ;)
 

CnoEvil

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Neuphonix said:
Regarding the Kefs, the dealer that I purchased my Akurate from has a trade in set of R205/2 in stock. So I will most definitely be checking them out before making a decision.

How could I not after all your incessant recommendations!!! ;)

My recomendation (to you in particular) for the 205/2s, is based on pairing them with ADS + AMS (very addictive mixture
evil.png
)......Though I'm not sure they would be top of my list with other amps, unless it was chosen very carefully.

Can you connect the AV amp -> AMS35p via Pre-Outs, for HT?
 

Neuphonix

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My recomendation (to you in particular) for the 205/2s, is based on pairing them with ADS + AMS (very addictive mixture
evil.png
)......Though I'm not sure they would be top of my list with other amps, unless it was chosen very carefully.

Can you connect the AV amp -> AMS35p via Pre-Outs, for HT?

[/quote]

I initially thought that I could hook the 35P up to the AV reciever via RCA & the Primo via XLR. Just use the little toggle switch on the back when switching between systems.

However the instruction manual explicitly states that the XLR/RCA outputs on the 35p are shared & should not be used together. Not that I was planning to use them at the same time, but given past experiences & the fact that the system has to be somewhat wife friendly I'm reluctant to tread this path.

I could hook the AV into an auxilary input on the primo & use it that way. This will work, but because I'm currently sharing the subs between both systems via the Bryston crossover I haven't gone there yet. I would have to remove the crossover or the subs would be geetting fed by both amps.
 

CnoEvil

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Neuphonix said:
I initially thought that I could hook the 35P up to the AV reciever via RCA & the Primo via XLR. Just use the little toggle switch on the back when switching between systems.

However the instruction manual explicitly states that the XLR/RCA outputs on the 35p are shared & should not be used together. Not that I was planning to use them at the same time, but given past experiences & the fact that the system has to be somewhat wife friendly I'm reluctant to tread this path.

I could hook the AV into an auxilary input on the primo & use it that way. This will work, but because I'm currently sharing the subs between both systems via the Bryston crossover I haven't gone there yet. I would have to remove the crossover or the subs would be getting fed by both amps.

Given I'm in a very similar situation to you, my compromised solution is being installed today.....so I will give a future update.

I am installing some Kef LS50s to the AV amp in order to cover Front L&R. The thinking behind this is:

- They are simply superb little speakers that have a Kef sound and play well above their pay grade.

- Front L&R are basically effects speakers, as the Front outputs about 70% of the info.

- The bass is delt with by a competent Sub.

- There is room to slot the LS50s in between the 205s and the rack.

- The systems are now totally separate (though share the sub).

- I prefer my music with less compromise than AV.

In your case,this might work, and with something like 205/2s, you shouldn't need a Sub for music. My concern is that if you replace the Primo/35P with something that is just very powerful (M6 500), you will initially convince yourself it was a good move, but over time you will regret selling the AMS pair.

Tread carefully my friend, and I'll report in later.
 
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Neuphonix said:
Thanks CNo & RS,

I will look into those two alternatives, have owned Oknyo amps in the past and always like them. Not had any experience with Arcam yet however.

Surely though the M6-500i would be superior for hifi usage than either of those two options? Would this not be having the best of both worlds both in terms of SQ & power.

Not as good as the AMS kit I know, but I guess I'm just thinking that the M6 would be used all the time whether it be for AV or hifi. As it stands the AMS gear is only used for Hifi around 50% of the time which is not necessarily a bad thing but a part of me would like to get more use out of such an expensive purchase. I don't want a Sunday sports car, more a powerful performer that can handle the daily commute & still leave you with a smile on your face. :)

Only you can decide really, but I use the 818 as the hub for all my listening. It does the daily grind you refer to and seeing as I'm between contracts just now, that can be from as early as 6am right through to midnight and sometimes later.

Yet to feel like I'm missing out, I gave up when traditional stereo integrated failed to keep pace with change. I also don't agree that they are better amps simply by virtue of being a stereo amp per se.
 

Neuphonix

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iceman16 said:
How about the Dali Epicon 6?

Sorry Iceman, didn't see your reply, thanks for the suggestion.

I will look into the Dali's.

I'm trying to do a trade on the Diablos rather than go through the hassle of a private sale.

If I can find a shop with a pair of the Dalis in stock I'll check them out for sure.

Have you had any experience with them?
 

Neuphonix

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[/quote]

Given I'm in a very similar situation to you, my compromised solution is being installed today.....so I will give a future update.

I am installing some Kef LS50s to the AV amp in order to cover Front L&R. The thinking behind this is:

- They are simply superb little speakers that have a Kef sound and play well above their pay grade.

- Front L&R are basically effects speakers, as the Front outputs about 70% of the info.

- The bass is delt with by a competent Sub.

- There is room to slot the LS50s in between the 205s and the rack.

- The systems are now totally separate (though share the sub).

- I prefer my music with less compromise than AV.

In your case,this might work, and with something like 205/2s, you shouldn't need a Sub for music. My concern is that if you replace the Primo/35P with something that is just very powerful (M6 500), you will initially convince yourself it was a good move, but over time you will regret selling the AMS pair.

Tread carefully my friend, and I'll report in later.

[/quote]

Had you thought of just trying one of those Beresford speaker switching boxes first? I know that you had previously voiced some reluctance to put another link in the chain, but sure is more convenient than installing a second set of speakers!!! Not to mention cheaper.

Not entirely sure about the fronts only being effects speakers? This is one of the primary reasons I want to go back to floorstanders. The difference in performance on the AV side of things is night & day IMO, stand mounts just don't cut it (& I have two subs taking care of the LFE). Not such an issue when watching the news, but for gaming & blurays different story.

Just a question regarding the 205s, their spec says that they roll off at 45Hz, I would have thought that a speaker of this size could have gone lower than that? For example the VA's that I was looking at are speced down to 28. I originally had my heart set on a pair of PMC PB1I which are speced to 24 but the distribution over here seems to be a bit up in the air & I doubt I can find a good change over deal.

I certainly share your reservations about getting rid of the AMS pair, I do love them & once I trade I doubt I'll be able to afford to go back there again. Will do the speakers first & live with them for a while. Then may borrow the M6-500 for a week or two and do some side by side at home.

Like I say I'm not expecting it to match the AMS kit, but the AV side of things is important to me & makes up a good enough chunk of my usage to give the matter further consideration.

I know the dealer with the second hand set of 205s is very open to trades & offered me exactly that amount for the Diablos. Who knows, maybe I'll get impulsive & have a new set of speakers by the weekend!!! >)
 

Neuphonix

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[/quote]

Only you can decide really, but I use the 818 as the hub for all my listening. It does the daily grind you refer to and seeing as I'm between contracts just now, that can be from as early as 6am right through to midnight and sometimes later.

Yet to feel like I'm missing out, I gave up when traditional stereo integrated failed to keep pace with change. I also don't agree that they are better amps simply by virtue of being a stereo amp per se.

[/quote]

There is something in what you say RS. As I said earlier my original intention was to simply add a power amp to my AV reciever, probably more out of boredom and a desire to spend money more than any real requirement.

18 months later I've been through a couple of amps, ended up with two separate systems & am looking at changing speakers again.

My wife complained about 30 minutes ago "you always make everything so complicated'!!! :oops:

Oh well, you only live once :)
 

CnoEvil

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Neuphonix said:
Just a question regarding the 205s, their spec says that they roll off at 45Hz, I would have thought that a speaker of this size could have gone lower than that? For example the VA's that I was looking at are speced down to 28. I originally had my heart set on a pair of PMC PB1I which are speced to 24 but the distribution over here seems to be a bit up in the air & I doubt I can find a good change over deal.

IMO. Kef are very modest with their measurements. The in room measurement is (probably) more like 35 Hz. (at -6dB). IMO The bass is very well controlled and has terrific definition and impact. At volume, they can shift air to the point where you can physically feel it in your stomach.....but get a listen as we're all different.

I went with the 205/2s as they had so much more scale than the 203/2s.......I often have to double check that the Sub isn't on, with bass heavy music.....they will sound even punchier with your set up. Nb. They have boundary compensation to help with room integration.
 

Neuphonix

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CnoEvil said:
Neuphonix said:
Just a question regarding the 205s, their spec says that they roll off at 45Hz, I would have thought that a speaker of this size could have gone lower than that? For example the VA's that I was looking at are speced down to 28. I originally had my heart set on a pair of PMC PB1I which are speced to 24 but the distribution over here seems to be a bit up in the air & I doubt I can find a good change over deal.

IMO. Kef are very modest with their measurements. The in room measurement is (probably) more like 35 Hz. (at -6dB). IMO The bass is very well controlled and has terrific definition and impact. At volume, they can shift air to the point where you can physically feel it in your stomach.....but get a listen as we're all different.

I went with the 205/2s as they had so much more scale than the 203/2s.......I often have to double check that the Sub isn't on, with bass heavy music.....they will sound even punchier with your set up. Nb. They have boundary compensation to help with room integration.

I thought that would be the case, that figure seemed a little modest for a speaker of this size.

The front ported design & room compensation features do make the 205 more appealing than the VA, on paper at least. They will be positioned quite close to the wall so should be somewhat more forgiving.

Plus a trade for these is pretty much swapping like for like in dollar terms, their original RRP is basically the same as the Diablos when you factor in the cost of the stands.

I'm making the call later today, will see if I can pop in for a listen this afternoon.
 

CnoEvil

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Neuphonix said:
I'm making the call later today, will see if I can pop in for a listen this afternoon.

As usual, I will be very interested in what you think......the Refs shouldn't be quite so much of a shock after Focal, just a little less forward.

If you call in for a listen, if possible, make sure it is an amp with similar tonal properties to your kit......the Refs should very much reflect the tonal qualities of what is upstream. If paired with forward electronics, that's the way they can sound.
 

Neuphonix

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CnoEvil said:
Neuphonix said:
I'm making the call later today, will see if I can pop in for a listen this afternoon.

As usual, I will be very interested in what you think......the Refs shouldn't be quite so much of a shock after Focal, just a little less forward.

If you call in for a listen, if possible, make sure it is an amp with similar tonal properties to your kit......the Refs should very much reflect the tonal qualities of what is upstream. If paired with forward electronics, that's the way they can sound.

They have the Akurate DS there, so the source will be the same. Don't sell MF gear though, so not sure exactly what amp will be used. When I listened to the Scalas there ealier in the year they used a Gryphon Diablo integrated.

There is an ex-demo pair of Dali Helicon 400 MK2 in stock as well, so I might ask them to line both up. Don't think that they have the Epicons however, but after Iceman's suggestion I've done a bit of reading, they look very nice.

Have you heard them yourself?
 

CnoEvil

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Neuphonix said:
There is an ex-demo pair of Dali Helicon 400 MK2 in stock as well, so I might ask them to line both up. Don't think that they have the Epicons however, but after Iceman's suggestion I've done a bit of reading, they look very nice.

Have you heard them yourself?

Sorry, I'm afraid not.
 

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